MattS Posted March 5, 2014 Share #1 Posted March 5, 2014 I am restoring the uniform of a navy lieutenant commander circa 1960. These are his ribbons according to his records in modern order of precedence, but I found a similar rack online that shows a different order (only 2 different ribbons, the American Defense and Philippine Liberation). Not sure where the Naval Reserve Medal and China Service Medal should go now, any help would be appreciated! LtCDR Near's ribbon rack: The similar one I found: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim B Posted March 5, 2014 Share #2 Posted March 5, 2014 try here: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/114394-faithful-service-the-naval-reserve-medal/page-2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattS Posted March 5, 2014 Author Share #3 Posted March 5, 2014 Thanks for that link! It appears that the rack I found online pre-dates the 1957 regs when the reserve medal was dropped to the bottom of the rankings so I will use the post-1958 regs and go with the top rack. Next question is when did China Service go from below WW2 Victory to above WW2 campaign medals? Same time frame? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim B Posted March 5, 2014 Share #4 Posted March 5, 2014 Typically, the service/campaign awards are worn as they were issued, with the earlier issued medal/ribbon taking precedence. The China Service Medal is usually listed higher in precedence (and shows that way on charts) because it was first authorized for China service from 1937-1939. It was again later authorized for service in China from September 1945 to March 1946 ("extended") for those personnel that already qualified for the Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medal. If you take a look at the ribbon bar that you found online pictured above, those ribbons are in correct precedence, assuming the China Service Medal was for the "extended" period which was for the WW2 era forces in China. Had that person received the award prior to WW2, then it would have placed after the Naval Reserve Medal and prior to the American Defense Service Medal. As the China Service Medal (extended) and WW2 Occupation Medals became authorized at the same time, you will often see some variance in which one is worn before the other, based on the actual dates that service member was entitled to each award. In the case of the ribbon bar you show online, it appears that member was awarded the China Service Medal prior to the Occupation Medal but, I have seen both ways on these. So IMO, your top rack is incorrect in the placement of the China Service Medal. Assuming he did not qualify for the initial issue of the award ('37-'39) and I do not see any American Defense Service Medal, I am to assume he was awarded the China Service under the "extended" period, which would then place that award either directly in front of, or behind, the Navy Occupation Service Medal, depending on actual dates he was awarded the two medals. I should add, that the authorized dates for the Pacific area awards are the same for both medals in this case, where the Occupation medal dates were earlier for the European area, so it could depend on where your guy was "occupying" when awarded that medal (I see he had both area campaign medals). Also keep in mind that the China Service Medal was for service in certain areas of China and surrounding waters, where the Occupation medal had a larger area to be awarded, so he could have had the Occupation award first. You need to see his actual dates. Hope that helps. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wharfmaster Posted March 5, 2014 Share #5 Posted March 5, 2014 The China Service Medal by Regs. is worn before the American Defense Medal, both time periods. However, men that qualified for it after WW2 often (incorrectly) wear it after their WW2 medals. W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattS Posted March 5, 2014 Author Share #6 Posted March 5, 2014 Thanks for that info, Tim! Ok, let me see if I can figure this out. He was commissioned in 1943, served in the Atlantic (EAME Medal w/2 stars), transferred to the Pacific in 1945, finished the war in Japan (Occupation Medal) and served off-shore China post-war. Given this, the first ribbon should be AmerCam, followed by EAME, PacCam, WW2 Victory, China Service, Occupation, NDSM, KSM, Naval Reserve, ROK citation, and finally UN Service. Sound right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wharfmaster Posted March 5, 2014 Share #7 Posted March 5, 2014 Your first ribbon group is correct. China Service before American Campaign. W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattS Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share #8 Posted March 6, 2014 So Wharf, by late 50s regs, I should go with the China Service first and the reserve medal in the bottom row? Just to note, the ribbons are displayed in his display case completely out of order and I'm trying to help the family correct that also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wharfmaster Posted March 6, 2014 Share #9 Posted March 6, 2014 If you go with your first ribbon group above, it will be correct for the late 50s. W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim B Posted March 6, 2014 Share #10 Posted March 6, 2014 The China Service Medal by Regs. is worn before the American Defense Medal, both time periods. However, men that qualified for it after WW2 often (incorrectly) wear it after their WW2 medals. W Yes, I believe you are correct here; the regs would have a "set" order of precedence and not allow for variations. The expeditionary medals would be another case in point, as we would see them all over the place and we don't. I stand corrected but you are correct, we see a lot of service member variations in period bars and I must add that most groups I've seen resemble the lower ribbon bar posted. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wharfmaster Posted March 6, 2014 Share #11 Posted March 6, 2014 Yes, I believe you are correct here; the regs would have a "set" order of precedence and not allow for variations. The expeditionary medals would be another case in point, as we would see them all over the place and we don't. I stand corrected but you are correct, we see a lot of service member variations in period bars and I must add that most groups I've seen resemble the lower ribbon bar posted. Tim Tim, I agree. My father was Navy Reserve, 1943 to 1965. He wore his Naval Reserve Medal ribbon first to the end of his career. No one ever gave him a bad time about it. W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim B Posted March 6, 2014 Share #12 Posted March 6, 2014 W, I don't blame him one bit, the original intent of the medal was to be the equivalent to the Navy Good Conduct Medal. It certainly looks nicer than the AFRM's that came out later, and I can't understand why anyone would have opted for the later when given the choice. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Linz Posted March 6, 2014 Share #13 Posted March 6, 2014 Hello, I would recommend that you leave everything as is except move the two ribbon bar to the top and turn the third ribbon bar over so the Korean Service is on the left as you look at it. It dosen't matter what the regulations say now or what they said 60 years ago those ribbons appear to have been how the Commander wore them and I would choose to left them that way. Semper Fi, Bruce Linz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cull canyon Posted March 6, 2014 Share #14 Posted March 6, 2014 When I was in the marines there were a lot of Korean veterans. They always had the Korean PUC after the UN Korean medal. Isn't that the correct placement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattS Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share #15 Posted March 6, 2014 I like that idea Bruce, thanks! As foreign awards are always at the bottom, seeing the UN and ROK PUC reversed probably wasn't rare, but I think the PUC takes precedence over the UN medal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattS Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share #16 Posted March 6, 2014 I went to the surplus store at lunchtime and bought the ribbons I needed. Does this look correct? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobgee Posted March 6, 2014 Share #17 Posted March 6, 2014 Correct EXCEPT that the Korean PUC succeeds the UN Korea. Bobgee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattS Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share #18 Posted March 6, 2014 But according to this chart, the UN ranks behind/below the ROK PUC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Linz Posted March 6, 2014 Share #19 Posted March 6, 2014 Hi, That is a fairly modern ribbon chart and it is not the same order of precedence as 1960. Semper Fi, Bruce Linz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattS Posted March 6, 2014 Author Share #20 Posted March 6, 2014 Ah, gotcha, thanks guys! Here's the finished product! Ribbon rack close-up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim B Posted April 1, 2014 Share #21 Posted April 1, 2014 Thought I would bump this one up just to show how prevalent the practice was of wearing the China Service after the WW2 service medals. Here's an offical command photo of GMCM Delbert Black, the first Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy (MCPON). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattS Posted April 1, 2014 Author Share #22 Posted April 1, 2014 Thanks for that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim B Posted April 1, 2014 Share #23 Posted April 1, 2014 Matt, You're very welcome. Time permitting...I will see if there was any official or unofficial guidance on this one. There may have been something that sailors read somewhere, wouldn't be the first time something like this happened. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wharfmaster Posted April 2, 2014 Share #24 Posted April 2, 2014 I would guess most sailors that qualified for the China Service Medal for the second period only placed the ribbon after WW2 ribbons. W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvage Sailor Posted April 2, 2014 Share #25 Posted April 2, 2014 Just to stir the pot...... Here's how the ribbons were displayed on my first ship circa 1965 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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