German Box Car Eagle

[tigerfan]

Picked up a few WWII German things from the estate of an 84th division veteran. This box car eagle was one of the items. Lighting wasn't the best so showing two photos, with and without the flash.

 

[USCapturephotos]

Nice find! What are the markings on the reverse? All the studs still there or were they cut off as you see sometimes.

Paul

[Timberwolf]

Very nice! Would love to see what else he brought home.

[tigerfan]

Nice find! What are the markings on the reverse? All the studs still there or were they cut off as you see sometimes.

Paul

 

There is another marking in the middle but I didn't take a photo of that one. All four studs are intact but were never machined down for use.

 

[tigerfan]

Very nice! Would love to see what else he brought home.

 

Mostly common things. A couple buckles, tinnies, other misc. I sold off all but one buckle on my way home and don't have any other photos to share.

[Patriot]

Very nice! It's very difficult to find these in decent condition, and yours certainly looks like a prize.

 

What is the wing span? The one that I have is the 27" version, and was brought home by a local veteran.

[tigerfan]

Very nice! It's very difficult to find these in decent condition, and yours certainly looks like a prize.

 

What is the wing span? The one that I have is the 27" version, and was brought home by a local veteran.

 

This measures just about 24".

[zotig111]

FYI - I am not commenting on this specific eagle but...

 

These things have been made in the states for years. There was a guy in TN or KY that was making them and selling them at shows as reproductions. He included his initials in the makers mark so everyone would know which were his. I can't remember exactly how he marked them or if he just marked them since the originals weren't.

 

Just adding this as a caution in case someone here was thinking about adding one to his war room.

[BROBS]

Sorry but I am just not sure that this one is original...

 

-Brian

[tigerfan]

Please note I am not trying to convince anyone of the originality of this eagle. I guess this WWII veteran that I have known for approx. 6 years is lying to me. Not to mention that I have owned a few others over the past 35+ years.

 

I was reluctant to even post anything German as a "spoils of war" souvenir as it seems to turn into a debate like other forums. The last German item I posted, a single decal helmet, became a debate of whether it was army or navy. I even had a couple send me a PM almost accusing me of trying to pass off an army helmet as navy. I never indicated either way what I thought it was and I really didn't care what it was, just showing a "spoils of war" souvenir.

 

So if posting German items is going to become a debate without asking for opinions, I'm all done posting.

[67Rally]

Please note I am not trying to convince anyone of the originality of this eagle.  I guess this WWII veteran that I have known for approx. 6 years is lying to me.  Not to mention that I have owned a few others over the past 35+ years. 

 

I was reluctant to even post anything German as a "spoils of war" souvenir as it seems to turn into a debate like other forums.  The last German item I posted,  a single decal helmet, became a debate of whether it was army or navy.  I even had a couple send me a PM almost accusing me of trying to pass off an army helmet as navy.  I never indicated either way what I thought it was and I really didn't care what it was,  just showing a "spoils of war" souvenir. 

 

So if posting German items is going to become a debate without asking for opinions,  I'm all done posting.

I've encountered similar reactions in other venues. I have an assortment of TR bring backs that were in US Army trunks, sent home to my Great grandparents home (which my grandfather and grandmother inherited) by my uncle from Germany in May of '45. To this day, the trunks still have the shipping lables and postage attached to them. In '94, my father and I retrieved the trunks from the attic as we prepared for an eventual estate sale. We contacted my then 94 year old uncle to ask what he wanted us to do withthe items...which he directed us to sell so that the proceeds could be used for my grandparents care.

 

The TR stuff had been there, untouched since 1945. When I tried to sell some of it, the collectors dismissed it as fake. I knew the chain of custody and the provenance...and was called a liar.

 

It is the dark underbelly of this hobby that deflates the passion.

[Martygraw]

I'm far from an expert. Many collectors know much more than I do. But if a vet digs an item

out of an old trunk and says he personally tore if off the uniform of a still warm body of a dead German, that's good enough for me. Of course, if I can get an affidavit from the vet, that helps with resale.

[Martygraw]

What deflates the passion for collecting for me are all the clowns that sell replicas and fakes. Even if they sell the items as replicas, the purchasers likely will not resell them as such, and the original sellers know that. These frauds are scum in my book.

[History Man]

Very nice find, especially nice that it came directly from the veteran. Thank you for sharing.

 

On a separate note: I have always found it interesting when looking at a variety of bringbacks, how the veterans got their spoils back home....when looking at an item like this or something else with an oddball shape and/or size, I just wonder how they managed to ship it back home. But then again, if one wants something bad enough....they will figure out a way.

 

Philip

[tigerfan]

Very nice find, especially nice that it came directly from the veteran. Thank you for sharing.

 

On a separate note: I have always found it interesting when looking at a variety of bringbacks, how the veterans got their spoils back home....when looking at an item like this or something else with an oddball shape and/or size, I just wonder how they managed to ship it back home. But then again, if one wants something bad enough....they will figure out a way.

 

Philip

 

I have thought the same thing over the years. More than once I have come in to a vet lot where he sent home a typewriter. Another time I bought a lot with a nice large leaded glass lamp shade, and it was not damaged!!.

[BROBS]

Please note I am not trying to convince anyone of the originality of this eagle. I guess this WWII veteran that I have known for approx. 6 years is lying to me. Not to mention that I have owned a few others over the past 35+ years.

 

I was reluctant to even post anything German as a "spoils of war" souvenir as it seems to turn into a debate like other forums. The last German item I posted, a single decal helmet, became a debate of whether it was army or navy. I even had a couple send me a PM almost accusing me of trying to pass off an army helmet as navy. I never indicated either way what I thought it was and I really didn't care what it was, just showing a "spoils of war" souvenir.

 

So if posting German items is going to become a debate without asking for opinions, I'm all done posting.

Sorry there sir, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings.

It could in fact be real, and in an unfinished state (taken from a factory or the like).

However where else would this have come from without studs even installed? It obviously was never mounted on anything.

 

Lots of unfinished items were sold to vets after the defeat of Germany... just look at all the "post defeat" iron crosses and such that were tossed together to be sold as souvenirs to the occupation GI's. It doesn't make the item fake but it doesn't exactly make it a "ww2 box car eagle" if it was never used as one or even finished... more like an occupation era souvenir rather than a spoil of war.

 

I meant no malice by my comment.. simply that perhaps further review of the item is needed.

MOST of these boxcar eagles are fakes.. and the finished ones usually had a gold finish.

There are lots of items in vet groups that just aren't right and there is no telling where they came from. Sometimes the vets picked up fake stuff along the way at a gunshow etc... and then forget where they got it and just figure they brought it home with everything else.

 

I guess in threads maybe we should state whether an item is open for comment/opinion or not. I guess I assumed anything posted was open for opinions or comments.

 

Sorry for hurting your feelings.... if you are 100% sure it's good then why so defensive? I am sorry about the comments your received on that helmet, but I was not one of them. Again.. this eagle may in fact be real!! It was only a comment!

 

-Brian

[tigerfan]

Hello, you didn't hurt my feelings. I received a few PM's/e-mails ( I will leave nameless ) about this pretty much telling me that this is not original. I guess from a not so great photo they are self expressed experts, oh well. As to the point of being unfinished. Without a doubt this is in an unfinished state. The front is definitely finished but what isn't are the studs. It's not that they are not there, as they are, they were never "turned down" and made in to threaded posts. If you search the net you will find a few of these for sale and some that have sold that are in the exact state as this one. The PM's I received pretty much deserved a response. It was timing that your post was there when I made a post.

 

Here is one from the net that is or was for sale.

 

 

and another

 

[Kman1752]

Very nice! With German items it's always helpful to get them right from the vet or family. Nice find. I used to collect a lot of TR items, but as here everyone that sees these type of items automatically says "FAKE!" Granted, there are a lot of fakes out there, but not every German WWII item is a fake. People should keep opinions to themselves unless it is asked of them.

[Terry K.]

Nice eagle. I would say it is original but I am no expert, but have had them like it. Most likely came from RR stocks.I just wanted to say that just because an item came from a vet doesn't mean it is from WW2. I have bought many groups right from vets that swore that they were in WW2 and these were their pieces,but there were known fakes in with them. I always thought it was just that the vet had brought most back but saw something at a fleamarket here in the states in the 60's or 70's that he had wanted when he saw one during the war and did not get. He then, (not knowing it was fake) bought the item and threw it in with his stuff and thought no more about it till bringing the group out for sale to me. I hope you know what I am trying to say.

[tigerfan]

Nice eagle. I would say it is original but I am no expert, but have had them like it. Most likely came from RR stocks.I just wanted to say that just because an item came from a vet doesn't mean it is from WW2. I have bought many groups right from vets that swore that they were in WW2 and these were their pieces,but there were known fakes in with them. I always thought it was just that the vet had brought most back but saw something at a fleamarket here in the states in the 60's or 70's that he had wanted when he saw one during the war and did not get. He then, (not knowing it was fake) bought the item and threw it in with his stuff and thought no more about it till bringing the group out for sale to me. I hope you know what I am trying to say.

 

Have had the same situations happen over the past years. One instance I had a vet bring out an SS honor dagger and told me he brought it home from Germany in 1945. It was a bad copy circa 1975, probably from a flea market. But I could tell this old timer was starting to loose a good part of his memory so I had a good conversation with him a couple drinks, thanked him for his service. He smiled, shook my hand and I went on my way. I never told him the dagger was a copy.

[BROBS]

Very nice!

 

.... People should keep opinions to themselves unless it is asked of them.

You just expressed an opinion and then said that people shouldn't express opinions...

go figure!

 

Nice eagle. I would say it is original but I am no expert, but have had them like it. Most likely came from RR stocks.I just wanted to say that just because an item came from a vet doesn't mean it is from WW2. I have bought many groups right from vets that swore that they were in WW2 and these were their pieces,but there were known fakes in with them. I always thought it was just that the vet had brought most back but saw something at a fleamarket here in the states in the 60's or 70's that he had wanted when he saw one during the war and did not get. He then, (not knowing it was fake) bought the item and threw it in with his stuff and thought no more about it till bringing the group out for sale to me. I hope you know what I am trying to say.

This was exactly my point about the "from a vet" deal. Yes.. usually that means an item is good but these vets are old and they can't remember everything always. Not that they are trying to deceive.. just that they simply don't remember. When I asked my grandfather about his knife from WW2 (USN Mk2).. he said he never had one and didn't remember bringing one home. After he passed away I found it in his sweater drawer.

 

Tigerfan: no harm no foul.. I thought you were directing the comment just toward me. Again, I am not an expert on these railroad eagles.. I just have seen a few others that looked like this dismissed as fake on WAF.

 

-Brian

[willysmb44]

Just an FYI, DR boxcars rarely carried metal eagles (and many times didn't even have painted eagles). This was probably from a locomotive.

As for the possibility of a fake, it happens. A lot. Others have alreayd pointed out how, above.

I have been given three groupings of vet 'bring back' items over the years which had obviously repro stuff in them. After so many years, vets are given things or maybe they buy something at a flea market to replace an items they'd had at some point but no longer have. Then many years go by and you forget where you'd got it. So, late in life, the vet says, "Hey, I took an iron cross off a German in 1945, there's one in the box, that's gotta be it. What do you mean, sonny, that it says, 'Made in Taiwan' on the back, don't tell me that's not the one I took in 1945, I was there!" I never told any of them that it was repro as there was no reason to do so.

Either you accept the chance it's repro from a vet, knowing that it happens, or you chose to believe it's not possible that a vet could be mistaken. Your call.

[tigerfan]

 

Tigerfan: no harm no foul.. I thought you were directing the comment just toward me. Again, I am not an expert on these railroad eagles.. I just have seen a few others that looked like this dismissed as fake on WAF.

 

-Brian

 

No problem. If I would have been paying attention and read your post before I put mine in I would have worded it differently. I was just taken back by a couple of the e-mails I had received by people I actually know. Although generally good people and I'm sure most of the time mean well, they have very little experience in TR or militaria in general.

[Jack's Son]

....... He smiled, shook my hand and I went on my way. I never told him the dagger was a copy.

This situation happened too me with a different item, when I think about it, I always wish I had not told the man it was fake.