Engineer DUI help needed

[1A291E]

Hello,

 

Would someone please tell what SSI was worn with the following Engineer DUI's...

 

13th Eng. Bn.

21st Eng. Bn.

46th Eng. Bn.

54th Eng. Bn.

95th Eng. Bn.

111th Eng. Bn.....36th Inf. Div.?????

231st Eng. Bn.

368th Eng. Bn.

 

Thanks for any and all help!!

 

Steve

[tredhed2]

Some of what you are asking depends on when the DI was worn and what time frame you are looking at.

 

13th Engr Cbt Bn - 7th ID

 

46th Engr Const Bn - had their own SSI c. 1946 and 1960s

 

54th Engr Cbt Bn - US Constabulary/ 7th US Army

 

95th Engr Cbt Bn - USAREUR

 

111th - 36th ID

 

231st Engr Cbt Bn - ND NG, 6th Army, 8th Army

 

362nd Engr Cbt Bn - USAREUR

 

21st Engr Cbt Bn - you got me

[patches]

If your talking about WWII, then there was no 21st Engineer Battalion, there was however a 21st Aviation Engineer Regiment, they were in Africa and Italy during the war, not sure what patch they would of worn, as they were not a Theater Command (NATOUSA/MTOUSA), Army or Corps Troops unit, maybe they wore just your standard Air Corps patch?

 

A 21st Engineer Battalion was activated in the early 50s, 1951, it seems to have been at Fort Carson/Camp Hale, Colorado in the 50s, here they may have worn the 5th Army patch, the unit may have been inactivated sometime in the 60s (not sure there)

[rlyoun3910]

Depending on what time frame, there could be many SSI that they are attributed. The 21st Engineers has a split history. In the 1920s it was attached to the 7th Infantry division. In 1943 it was redesignated as the 1277th Combat Engineer Battalion assigned to Supreme Allied Headquarters then to 3rd Army and 7th Army in France. Its number changed back to the 21st Engineer Battalion Ft Leonardwood, subordinate to the 5th Engineer Brigade.

 

From the 5th Engineer Regiment previously, HHC and Service Company became HHC 1128th Engineer Combat Group; its 1st Battalion, 21st Eng Bn (Combat), became the 1277th Engineer Combat Battalion and made the assault into Normandy, subsequently assigned to Patton's 3rd Army there after; and, its 2d Battalion, 5th Combat Engineer Bde, became the 1278th Engineer Combat Battalion (Sep) which remained in England. B Co 1277th Eng Battalion was assigned to the 103rd Inf Div as well. I'm sure that there's more to their history, if ever it gets written.

[patches]

1st Battalion 5th Engineers become 1277th Engineer Battalion.

 

http://www.history.army.mil/html/forcestruc/lineages/branches/eng/0005enbn.htm

No 21st Engineer Battalion or Regiment served in the period of WWI, Post WWI, or the WWII-Post WWII period, it is first activated at Fort Leonard Wood in 1951, though the 21st Engineer Battalion formed in 1951 does have it's lineage with the 1277th Eng Bn and by extension the 5th Eng Regt, the 5th Eng Regt's 1st Battalion.

 

http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Catalog/HeraldryMulti.aspx?CategoryId=8784&grp=2&menu=Uniformed%20Services

[rlyoun3910]

Oh I agree, but only take some of the information TIOH either approved or made up arbitrarily for current Army units. For instance, the Army Engineers at Ft Leonardwood is tracking this lineage for the 21st Engineer Battalion, partly mentioned above. I've included some pictures from the Army Engineer Museum related to the 21st Engineer Battalion. According to Ft Leonardwood's and the Engineer Corps timelines and identification methods, they track this lineage: 20, 21, 22 battalions of engineers were formed from the 5th Regiment of Engineers assigned to the 6, 7, and 8 infantry divisions respectively (c. 1920s until 1942) I can't attest for the paperwork received by TIOH at that time when the 1277th and 1278th specifically were attributed to the 21st and 5th Engineer battalions. The 1278th remained in England and all elements of the 1277th deployed; however, there are battlefield statements that attest to individuals at least from the 1278th who were at Omaha Beach all day on 6th June 1944. Daily unit morning reports stated that elements, nee companies, of the 1277th moved off the beaches from both UTAH and OMAHA facilitating "clearance" operations, not so much as vertical skills missions. Just hopefully adding some light to the overall confusions to combat engineer dispersions and that probably due to sapper missions to breach obstacles and mine fields. I think it shows, too, that the unit crest adopted by the 1950s 21st Eng battalion was an actual crest in 1942 and not superficially made in 1951. I thought is a valid argument and indicative of confusing TIOH statistics that we take for granted.

[patches]

@rlyoun, you might be on to something there with the 20th, 21st and 22nd Engineers being assigned as Battalion strength Engineer units for these above mentioned Divisions, the 6th, 7th and 8th Divisions, during that time frame mentioned, circa earlish or midish 1920s to 1939-1940 these Divisions were inaffect inactive, paper units if you will, but as we have found these Divisions, for the Regular Army as well as the Organized Reserve, had active units, albeit at Brigade Strength, who knows, maybe with the Division's Brigades kinda rotating back and forth between active periods.

So in essence these Divisions really would in those days have no need for a full Regiment of Engineers which was the norm in the three officially active Regular Divisions, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Divisions and that's why these Battalions were assigned? Perhaps it was seen as a better alternative to using only one Battalion of a 5th Engineer Regiment for this service period? Though the Army's Center for Military History has it down that the entire 5th Eng Regt was assigned in the 20s and 30s first with the post WWI era 7th Division and then later with the 8th Division, confusing right? In this case, the assignment of the full 5th Engineers may have been a paper assignment, with those Battalions, the 20th, 21st, 22nd Engineer Battalions formed from personel of the 5th Engineers doing the leg work with any Brigades of there assigned Divisions that was active.

More insight in any event on this interesting period of the "Inactive" Divisions can be found here

[rlyoun3910]

It's frustrating to get a better sense of lineage other than some arbitrary notion on some form submitted through Army channels somewhere. However, empathetically, the soldiers who nominated the units to be such and such obviously had a better perspective than we can. There were so many units on paper as placeholders, too, so the heritage looks convoluted if not disjointed. Case in point is both I and II Corps up at Ft Lewis: largely paper armies, although I Corps recently deployed to Iraq. If we adhered to naming conventions and heraldry, then the 21st engineer's heraldry/lineage should be 1st Division, I Corps during the Civil War (red crescent), and V Corps (five-sided fort) during the Spanish American War; the hour glass patch for 7th Infantry Division; the anchor and oars for Pontooniers in any conflict. Very interesting. Too bad TIOH does not foot note their unit descriptions. I know that it is terribly important for units to have that legacy and connection with the past. Not just for the development of their unit crest, but certainly to have a physical connection to a past by adding campaign streamers to their guidon. No one hates showing up to the parade naked.

 

Story: I was in a formation while stationed in Germany a long time ago. Some of the heckling was directed to a Pershing Missile Unit. One smart alek said that " you guys don't have any battle streamers!" To which an astute rebuttal came from the formation: "You don't want us to have a battle streamer!" I still think that was funny.--Ray

[rlyoun3910]

Thanks for the redirect to your previous discussion RE SSI. There were several times when soldiers just did not have uniformity (no pun) regarding SSI or DUI wear. it wasn't enforced, but really, issue of SSI or DUI was based on monies of the unit. Specifically National Guard units paid for their own patches, buttons, insignia, and unit crests. As far as lineage, well, that depended on the echelon of the unit and whether they followed TIOH protocols, too. I think we all know this. So, the first time was immediately after the Spanish-American War where the use of DUI was approved and seemed like the trend. I say trend as very little Army Regulations really ascertain what the left and right limits were to unit insignia, whether worn on the shoulder, the hat or the lapels/epaulets. The uniforms were changing every 5 years like they are today. The proliferation of unit identity did not take hold, another socially passive term, until soldiers were in AEF in France where Allied units had their own crests and distinctions, too. However, the Army had money to use on accoutrements. Then between the wars atrophy. We saw a proliferation of distinction and uniform care during WW II, based on money, and you could argue why spend money on brass and such when metals were needed crucially for bullets and other war materiel. We see most proliferate units (larger units) utilizing silver, which I think was smart, provided shine, and was rarely used in war material. Then we saw a period between, roughly, 1944 through 1950 where units just did not care and soldiers wore what ever they wanted, basically. I remember in the early 1980s when I first jointed the National Guard then the regular Army both organizations just did not have enough SSI or DUI so I had to go buy my own. Obscure units, I'm sure, suffer more. The default would be to wear those insignia of their attached, parent unit.