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Trench/ riot guns


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I've been working on converting a couple of shotguns i've picked up in to trenchguns, a Norinco model 97 and the 1953 model 12 i just purchased. I reenact ww2 and vietnam, and was looking for help with the 97 as the damn thing doesn't seem to fit the heat shield i purchased for it. Also, any information on shotgun usage in the ETO, as well as vietnam. I've seen pictures of soldiers in europe carrying 97 trenchguns, but i don't remember where. any help would be greatly appreciated

SPC Bunny

XRAY, THIS IS MONGOOSE 16 ROMEO. WHAT THE F**K, OVER?

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The screws need to be completely removed in order to instal the heat shield. Once that is done, and the heat shield is properly aligned, take a thin file and make grooves in the barrel for each screw to pass through. Once that is done, just tighten the screws. You might also need a special end cap for the magazine tube, though I am not positive.

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Also, any information on shotgun usage in the ETO

 

The trench gun was used in the ETO, but only in very limited numbers and mostly by guards and MP's. I heard a few stories of combat use, but none were confirmed. Following pictures via numerous internet sources, there are also a few nice photos of the trench gun in J. Gawne's 'Spearhaeding D-day'.

 

 

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Always looking for mint condition WW2 US combat gear, equipment, helmets and uniforms -

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The LIFE picture TS is of an MP Prisoner escort unit...of which were prescribed Trench guns in their T & OE...top picture is nice would love to know what unit that guard is from especially as he is wearing a gas detection arm brassard.

 

Regards

 

Lloyd

What do you need another one of those for.....you have 6 of them already ?.........

:blink:

 

my girlfriend to me on a regular basis as another piece of US WW2 "Green stuff" aka militaria arrives in the post..:-)

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Since your goal is a look-alike M97 trench gun, remember that the issue M97 trench guns had a sling swivel on the buttstock. The only M97 and M12's that were issued in WWII without the sling swivel were the trap and skeet versions.

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

*Sherlock Holmes in "A Scandal in Bohemia"*

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I would keep a lookout for the 97 trench shotgun version that Norinco manufactured, rather than trying to convert a riot gun. You are just going to lower any real resale value(which isnt that much since it is a Chinese repro, as compared to an original) that the Norinco may have had by doing any permanent mods to the shotgun. But the shotgun still has value, repro or not, and I wouldnt mess with any permanent mods. Your response may be that it was cheap enough, since it wasnt an original, but 20-25 yrs from now you may wish you hadnt messed with it. Just my opinion.

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great pics, thanks savage. i already had the 97 milled to recieve the screws and got a swivel for it, the problem is the magazine end cap. the peg doesn't line up with the hole on the heat shield

XRAY, THIS IS MONGOOSE 16 ROMEO. WHAT THE F**K, OVER?

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Here are my trench/riot guns.

 

3Guns_Web.JPG

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

NRA Life Member
Past President, The American Thompson Association
American Society of Arms Collectors
Ohio Gun Collectors Association
Carbine Club
Garand Collectors Association

International Ammunition Association
Contributing Writer, Small Arms Review Magazine
Co-Author, "Thompson Manuals, Catalogs, & Other Paper Items" Collector Guide
One of the "Other Authors" of "The Ultimate Thompson Book," by Tracie L. Hill
Eagle Scout, and Member of NESA

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Since your goal is a look-alike M97 trench gun, remember that the issue M97 trench guns had a sling swivel on the buttstock. The only M97 and M12's that were issued in WWII without the sling swivel were the trap and skeet versions.

 

Here is my M12 riot. No sling swivels. Thanks, Al.

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Here is my M12 riot. No sling swivels. Thanks, Al.

 

 

Very nice.

 

You're right, there were about five or six versions of the M1912 used during WWII. But the riot 'trench gun' version with the bayonet lug had the swivels installed.

 

RC

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

*Sherlock Holmes in "A Scandal in Bohemia"*

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Private Panda- I honestly don't remember the make of the shotgun. But, I do know I had a General Cutlery M1917 Vietnam era bayonet attached. That pick was taken in Aug 1972. I'm sure the shotgun experts know more about the riotgun than I do. SKIP

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Private Panda- I honestly don't remember the make of the shotgun. But, I do know I had a General Cutlery M1917 Vietnam era bayonet attached. That pick was taken in Aug 1972. I'm sure the shotgun experts know more about the riotgun than I do. SKIP

 

Just looking at th picture and being far from an expert, it looks similar to a Winchester M-1200. I seem to recall that the military purchased the "riot gun" versions added the shield and bayonet lugs to these waepons. I think some Remington M-870's were bought and used that way as well.

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Here is my M12 riot. No sling swivels. Thanks, Al.

 

 

I know M12's pretty well and I would probably guess that buttstock has been changed. Most of the M12's went thru a rebuild right before Vietnam and were rebuilt at Rock Island and Toole Arsenal. And the most common thing replaced during rebuild was the buttstock as they were usually broke. Most buttstocks are stamped RIA or TE on the buttstock and the metal was parkerized during the rebuild. The original finish was blued, except for the very last M12 Trench guns which were original parked. I think those were in the 1.2 million range or something like that.

 

After they were rebuilt a lot of them went to Vietnam never to return or some were shipped to Police or prisons for guard duty and then sold for surplus later on. I have two M12 Trench's. Both were rebuilt at Rock Island. Both were original blued and then parkerized during rebuild.

 

Looking at your pics it appears to be a really worn parked finish from the pics. It doesn't look like a worn blued finish. So it appears it has been rebuilt as almost all were.

 

As far as I know any true military riot or Trench gun buttstock had a sling swivel in it. I would be curious to know the serial number as some variations are seen in the early 900,000 range. As they were taken from commercial production lines and sent to the military. But many of these were skeet/training guns. Many of these are also were converted to riot guns at a later time as the Full was lined out and CYL was put underneath it.

 

My best guess on that buttstock was it was probably changed post military service, such as in police duty. If a buttstock broke while in Police custody they would have just put an old commercial one on it. And I'm guessing that is most likely what happened to it. Even if replaced during rebuild, I would imagine they would have put a sling swivel on it. I know my one rebuild M12 had a replacement buttstock on it, and the sling swivel was milled out on it.

 

Here are a couple pis. See how they stamped the buttstock with the RIA rebuild mark.

 

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OK folks, I need to put in my 2 cent's worth. The Winchester M12 riot shotgun that I posted is a correct, unaltered blued (but worn) production gun, made in 1945. Serial Number 987167, all matching parts. I have also added a picture of the cartouches in the ORIGINAL stock. Riot guns have plain 20" barrels and do not have sling swivels. Trench guns with hand guards/bayonet adaptors do have sling swivels. I quote Bruce Canfield on page 11 of his book Combat Shotguns: "Keeping with generally accepted collector jargon, the term 'riot gun' refers to a plain short-barrel (typically about 20 inch) shotgun. The term 'trench gun' refers to a riot gun fitted with a hand guard/bayonet adaptor and sling swivels." However the Ordnance Department did not seem to differentiate between the two and mostly refereed to all as riot guns. So, as collectors, I place my vote for the definition of riot guns and trench guns to be as described by Mr. Canfield. Thanks, Al.

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  • 1 month later...

OK folks, I need to put in my 2 cent's worth. The Winchester M12 riot shotgun that I posted is a correct, unaltered blued (but worn) production gun, made in 1945. Serial Number 987167, all matching parts. I have also added a picture of the cartouches in the ORIGINAL stock. Riot guns have plain 20" barrels and do not have sling swivels. Trench guns with hand guards/bayonet adaptors do have sling swivels. I quote Bruce Canfield on page 11 of his book Combat Shotguns: "Keeping with generally accepted collector jargon, the term 'riot gun' refers to a plain short-barrel (typically about 20 inch) shotgun. The term 'trench gun' refers to a riot gun fitted with a hand guard/bayonet adaptor and sling swivels." However the Ordnance Department did not seem to differentiate between the two and mostly refereed to all as riot guns. So, as collectors, I place my vote for the definition of riot guns and trench guns to be as described by Mr. Canfield. Thanks, Al.

That is an astute point to make differentiating between how the military refers to shotguns and collector's term differences. To clarify if we call a "riot" gun a short, 18.5-20in barrel with no ventilated hand guard or bayonet lug, there will not be sling swivels inlet-ed in the stock, as the fore swivel is part of the hand guard assembly. No hand gaurd assemble on a "riot" guns means no front sling swivel. There is, as previously noted a difference in riot/trench barrels. The riot barrel is smooth on the underside near the muzzle, while the "trench" barrel has three grooves which guide the three screws for the hand guard. Also the magazine cap differs as a "trench" cap has a stud which guides the bayonet lug, while the "riot" cap is smooth. As far as the original question concerns the lack of fit between the hand gaurd and the norinco m97. One thing to consider is that while the norinco is a very close copy, parts are not interchangeable with a real Winchester made m97. So if the norinco does not have screw grooves for the bayonet lug, or a studded magazine cap, or the hand guard is different manufacture than norinco, it may not fit without machining.

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