Mixed Parts. Common?

[knd643]

Is it common to see WW2 M1 Garands with mixed parts. Like a Springfield Armory M1 but with a good amount of Winchester parts on it. I was told by a buddy of mine that you can see garands coming out of factory's like this during WW2. I can see a WW2 M1 garand have a couple of mixed parts on it due to parts breaking and the solider fixed it with whatever parts he could find. But coming out of a factory like that. I've never heard of that.

[Chris_B]

US manufacturing process was firmly away from the concept of matched parts even then. Compare to a german weapon of the era. It was the rule to see all s/ns match on a 'proper' german weapon, for example a P.38 pistol. If the parts didn't match for s/n, they may not work together correctly.

 

In direct contrast, an M1 rifle was never matched for s/ns. It used 'drawing numbers' on the parts instead. One part with that drawing number was within a tolerance spec of any other part with that drawing number. Nobody cared if their Winchester m1 had a Springfield oprod. An operating rod for example does not bear a serial number but rather a drawing number.

 

Coming from the factory that way however...maybe. If one manufacturer was out of parts due to a production schedule hiccup I could see it.

[oldfireguy]

There are some circumstance of other manufacturers parts being used in WW2 production to make up shortages in both Garands and Carbines. Some early Winchester rifles used SA gas cylinders for example. Once they got into the hands of the military then the parts swapping took place.

 

I can't remember if it was a PTO or an ETO photo, (may be some of both) of a soldier sitting next to a huge pile of Garands that were broken or unusable tearing them down and putting them back together.

 

If you buy enough Garands it's not uncommon to find Danish and Italian parts in them too.

[vmfa314]

Yes its very common to see rifles come out of production with other makers parts on them. Look at Winchester they stopped making Garands in 1945 Springfield was still making Garands past 1945 so with the parts already produced but unused by Winchester SpringField would have used them. H&R used Springfield parts in the beginning of its Production. Also when rifles were brought in for overhaul parts were parts a functioning rifle was all that mattered.

[Costa]

post war rebuilds? alot of that went on after the war during the rebuild process. i never knew of mixed parts during ww2. springfeild and winchester were both gun makers so why have someone else making your parts?

[TLeo]

I believe Garands would have come from the factory with all SA or Winchester parts but during the course of the war, if a part wore out or was broken, armorers simply picked up a part and repaired the weapon with no care about it being "correct" for that maker. GI parts were intentionally made to be interchangeable just for that reason. You really see this with M1 carbines as many of the makers shared parts among each other at the factory level so I would not be surprised if a Garand maker used another comoany's parts if needed.. Throw in the post war rebuilds along with the war time repairs and very, very few Garands or carbines came out of the war with all it's correct parts.

[Garandomatic]

post war rebuilds? alot of that went on after the war during the rebuild process. i never knew of mixed parts during ww2. springfeild and winchester were both gun makers so why have someone else making your parts?

Like they said, shortage of part A or B, hard time tooling up to get a certain thing, could be any number of reasons, I've not read any specifics about that, but it seems totally likely though most of it was done rebuilding damaged weapons. You can better see this with the M1 Carbine. TONS of sub-contractors there. When maximum output for a world war is the motive behind production, gunmaker or not (majority of companies making carbines had little experience with guns in peacetime), if you can save time, money, effort, or etc. by having another company make a component, it would make sense.

[Orlando]

A Springfield would not have been built originally with Winchester parts, your buddy is incorrect.

[knd643]

I can see some M1s had mixed parts due to a shipping mix up so they used some Winchester parts. It also makes since if it would save them money they would do it. Now I think everyone here knows that most rifles during WW2 had parts get switched by soldiers due to a part being broken and they didnt care if it was a Springfield or Winchester part. Also I wonder if early war productions of the garand compared to late war productions of the garand had an effect on whether or not companies would use other company parts to save money.

[thorin6]

The government had a program for M1 Carbines to transfer parts from one of the eleven manufacturers to another in order to keep production moving, and also from subcontractors making barrels and some other parts (See "War Baby" as a reference). The same type of parts utilization occurred in the early stages of M1911 manufacturing so that early Remingtons, US&Ss, and Ithacas could have parts from Colt or even SA (barrels) and be correct. However, I've not seen anything that shows that Springfield and Winchester had the same type of arrangement for M1 Garands. Everything I've read about the production of Garands during WWII would indicate that out of the production line SA Garands would have only SA parts, and Winchester Garands would only have Winchester parts.

Post-war production of IHC and HRA Garands is a different story.

[Orlando]

Carbines manufactures swapped parts , garands no

[Big Al]

The Springfield Armory is in central Massachusetts and Winchester is on the south coast of Connecticut. No chance of parts from one facility ending up at another, even by mistake.

[oldfireguy]

That's why they shipped them.

[Big Al]

The Springfield Armory is in central Massachusetts and Winchester is on the south coast of Connecticut. No chance of parts from one facility ending up at another by mistake.

 

Fixed it. That is what I meant.

[thorin6]

I believe some people are engaging in wishful thinking because they have seen or owned a Winchester WWII Garand that was "100%" original but with a part from SA and vice versa. I have a Winchester M1 Carbine that was made in February 1945 that has an SA marked Type 3 front barrel band (with bayonet lug). The barrel band has been on the carbine a long time, and there are other owners of late production Winchester Carbines with the same SA marked front barrel band that they claim is original to the carbine. However, records at SA indicate they did not make any M1 Carbine parts until June 1945 at the earliest. In order to keep the lines moving, if Winchester ran short of flip safeties, adjustable sights, and front barrel bands, they were allowed to put on what ever they had in the parts bins just so they could get the carbines out the door and into war reserve. At some point after the end of the war, when the unused cabines from war reserve were being put into long term storage the correct sight, safety, and barrel band were installed using parts from several manufacturers, including SA. Over the years the wear on all the parts would be consistent, but that didn't change the fact that the SA marked barrel bands could not have been placed on the carbines at the factory, as they didn't exist then.

If someone can point out a reliable reference that clearly notes that some SA parts were used on early Winchester Garands or left over Winchester parts were used on SA Garands during WWII production, please post it. We can all learn a little that way.

As an aside, Bruce Canfield's new book on Garands is out, so it may have the information if someone has ordered and received a copy.

[Orlando]

Bottom Line, a Winchester Garand with Springfield parts either went through a rebuild, had parts swapped by GI's during cleaning or other person, people at some time in the rifles existance

[Orlando]

HRA for a short time did use some SA parts but they are the only documented manufacture to have done this

[oldfireguy]

I'm not sure where I read the article on WRA using SA gas cylinders early in production but I did email Bruce Canfield and he said that there are no documented cases that it happened. I'm not the only one who read the article because I remember it making the rounds on all the forums. I stand corrected on my earlier post.

[ccyooper]

I'm not saying this about this thread but unfortunately it happens all the time and I call them forum facts. Someone mentions something on a forum and that gets transferred to another forum and gets repeated by eager responders and pretty soon the comment turns into fact. Therefore when I see/read something unusual I normally ask what reference/picture is being cited, etc., to determine the merit of discussion. Some turn out to be fact, some to be mostly correct or distorted, and some are just nonsense. I think many are started because people want to believe (wishful thinking) they have a gem or one off instance of something rare or unusual. While in the military collecting field it is hard to say never, most of the stories are based upon speculation and unintentional misinformation. Bill Ricca and Frank Trzaska are famous fact checkers that come to mind on the forums. Normally when they identify or write about something it is based upon a contract document/original order or direct archival research.

[oldabewla]

If you want to find out the best information out there on M1 Garands get Scott Duff's red cover book on the WWII Garands or the Post WWII Garand the blue cover book. They have many years of research studying original unrestored Garands and archives done on the M1 Garands, also Bruce Canfield books are a great source for the M1 carbine and Garands.

 

The M1 Garands have drawing number on their parts and when a change took place a dash line plus a number was added after the drawing number on the part this is a way collectors date the time period the parts were made.

 

During WWII Winchester Garands had all Winchester part and Springfield had all springfield parts when they left the factory. The only mix of parts was post WWII when different contactors help suppiled new H&R and HIC plus even Marlin made barrels for the rebuild Garands.

 

Craig

[oldabewla]

Here is were the term (Mixmaster Garand) comes from.

 

Craig

[Dan Niles]

If you want to find out the best information out there on M1 Garands get Scott Duff's red cover book on the WWII Garands or the Post WWII Garand the blue cover book. They have many years of research studying original unrestored Garands and archives done on the M1 Garands, also Bruce Canfield books are a great source for the M1 carbine and Garands.

 

The M1 Garands have drawing number on their parts and when a change took place a dash line plus a number was added after the drawing number on the part this is a way collectors date the time period the parts were made.

 

During WWII Winchester Garands had all Winchester part and Springfield had all springfield parts when they left the factory. The only mix of parts was post WWII when different contactors help suppiled new H&R and HIC plus even Marlin made barrels for the rebuild Garands.

 

Craig

Craig is right on his information and book referrals. There is no doubt some parts got switched during service but they would not have left the factory that way during WWII. This is the reason an M1 deemed all original with provenance commands such high prices from Garand collectors. They are tough to find and most original M1's didn't see combat, they were lend lease or state side rifles that didn't require rebuild or repair. I highly recommend Scott Duff's book, even if you don't own an M1it is a great read and includes the history of this great rifle and accessories for it.

[phyllene]

I have had a National Postal Meter M-1 carbine with a IBM barrel and always thought in was a post-war refurb.. Then I bought Canfield's book and found they issued carbines with different barrels including IBM.

 

 

Greg