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Questions on a bright blade Camillus Mark 1


bayonetman
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A question for those who are collectors of Camillus Mark 1 knives.

 

I recently obtained this specimen. It is the first one that I recall seeing that does not have the USN or USN Mark 1 marking.

 

It has a bright blade (not sure if that is original, as a previous owner allowed it to rust and it has been heavily cleaned) and is in the sheath that is marked KEEP THIS KNIFE WELL OILED. This sheath was used with an order for the Mark 1 knives that had bright blades, the reason for which is not known to my knowledge.

 

Frank Trazaska discusses these knives in his Knife Knotes stating:

 

We know as fact that Camillus made bright blades for the Mark 1 on request from the Navy during World War Two. What we don’t know is the reason behind it. Has anyone ever run across any documents stating the reasoning for bright blades? The somewhat rare scabbard with the imprinting "KEEP THIS KNIFE WELL OILED" is associated with the bright blade Mark 1 and is the only one with this marking we have ever observed. They were purposely ordered without Parkerizing and produced in bulk, as Camillus Model #5683 L94 but why? The initial prototype order was on 9/16/43 for the samples. They used the standard leather washer handles with the Oris Manufacturing molded plastic butt with the Marbles supplied brass nut, the same as the Parkerized versions. They were marked with the U.S.N. obverse and the Camillus, N.Y. reverse standard marks.

 

As Frank states, these are normally marked with the U.S.N. on the left ricasso, but this one is not and close scrutiny does not show any trace of this marking.

 

I can think of a few reasons why the mark does not appear:

 

1. Factory error, the mark was accidentally left off. (I doubt this is true)

2. Special order from the Navy to leave the mark off of some. (Don't know why and doubt this also)

3. Made for sale late in the war in the PX or Ships Store system. (This is at least possible in my opinion)

4. Sold post war using up leftover parts as many other companies did. If this is true, how did it end up in the specially marked sheath, although I suppose they may have had some of those leftover also.

 

I am open to suggestions.

 

post-66-0-71652100-1391299388.jpg

 

 

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Gary- I have one identical to yours. Bright blade, no USN. Scabbard is the same type, but, there is no stamp"Keep This Knife Well Oiled". I have no clue on answers to your questions. The mystery continues. SKIP

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Charlie Flick

Hi Gary:

 

Sorry, I can't answer your question on these bright blade Camillus Mark I knives. I can't suggest a good reason for them, but note that there are Mark Is made by other makers which came in bright blade versions. There was tremendous variability in the Mark I knives, which probably explains why they are of such interest to collectors today.

 

Here is one for you. It is the mirror image of your blade, but with the Camillus marking on the left ricasso rather than the right side. The sheath does not bear the Keep Well Oiled legend, but it otherwise identical. I could not find this version in Cole's book or anywhere else.

 

Regards,

Charlie Flick

 

 

 

Camillus Mark I left side ed.jpg

Camillus Mark I right side ed.jpg

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For whatever it's worth. Cole has the bright blade MK1 w/ and w/o the USN pictured on pg 113 in "Best Of Coles". That's it though, no explanations. SKIP

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I have a plausible explanation falling within Gary's line item #4. Could these have been made immediate post war for Scout use? or at least the intended market.

The knife resembles typical official patterns of the era with blade, handle and sheath but these have the BSA emblem tooled on sheath. "KEEP THIS KNIFE WELL OILED" seems very commercial and added with the lack of Government property marks in my mind really deviates from standard war time practices."KEEP THIS KNIFE WELL OILED" is basic instruction 101 or knife Care for Dummies.

My 2 cents

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Frank Trzaska

Hello Guys,

It isn't a Mark1 so no USN marking on the ricasso like a typical Mark 1 would have. It is a 5 inch hunting knife, or Knife, Hunting, 5 Inch with Sheath in later terms. They were ordered by the Army and delivered to the Jersey City Quartermaster Depot as a generic hunting knife. The sheath was made by Mosser and so marked than supplied to Camillus to package with the bright knife. It is a correct and scarce package.

 

I wrote and article just published this month in Knife World on the AAC 5 inch hunting knives but stopped short of including the later models. I had to narrow it down just to get the AAC types in and still went too long, sometimes I talk (write?) too much when I get carried away, These generic knives were a design used to speed up production and for cost reduction purposes. Camillus, Case, Western and others all made the later generic types that did not adhere to the earlier pattern established by the Marbles knife. (Dustin and I had quite a few conversations on the earlier knives, thanks Dustin). The 5 inch hunting knife went on to serve in many forms and in fact still does today, it seems to fit the bill as a handy utility knife that can easily be packaged and carried when required.

 

The knives like Gary's and Charlie's were finished in a machined and glazed finish, like a crocus type finish not a buffed bright finish. I have not found how many were made and all the particulars on them as of yet but can tell you I have seen, owned and sold a few through the years and as you see here they were marked on either side and the stamping on the sheath can be found top to bottom and bottom to top. So keep hunting as you could have several variations of this one.

 

All the best

Frank Trzaska

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Thank you Frank, it is always a pleasure to get the real story. I appreciate your input.

 

I presume that the bright ones in this sheath that are marked U.S.N. are the ones that were ordered by the Boston Naval Supply Depot?

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Frank Trzaska

Gary,

Delivered to the Navy Department, Naval Ordnance. I don't remember if it was any specific Depot.

 

All the best

Frank Trzaska

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Gary,

Delivered to the Navy Department, Naval Ordnance. I don't remember if it was any specific Depot.

 

All the best

Frank Trzaska

 

Frank, I stated the Boston Depot as that is the reference that is noted on the Camillus sketch from the Collectors of Camillus website. It is of course quite possible that the change in specification came from there but deliveries were made to other Depots.

 

post-66-0-24602100-1391479808.jpg

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Charlie Flick

Yes, great stuff by our resident experts. Thanks to all.

 

BTW, above Frank mentioned his article in this month's Knife World. It is a highly informative article and I commend it to all with an interest in USGI 5" sheath knives of WW2 and later. Our member Dustin C. is credited by Frank in the article with a valuable assist as well.

 

Regards,

Charlie

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Great information!! Never would have thought it to be an army requested knife. WOW!! Frank and Gary, very helpful. Thank you for the information. Always appreciated. Another mystery solved. SKIP

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Another superior thread here. From Franks input it got me wondering about a knife I’ve had now for a few years.


I’ve made a small collection of WW2 5-inch fixed blade hunting knives which are known to have been included in aircrew survival kits. Still looking for a few. Along the way I obtained a Case made knife that I really didn’t know what to make of it. Pretty much assumed that it was most likely something that Case might have made after the war out of surplus parts. But I always wondered why they would have made such a plain Jane knife after the materials restrictions had been lifted.



IMG_0528_zps412f087d.jpg



This knife varies from the positively ID’ed Case survival kit knives on a few points.


First the geometry of the blade is a bit more slender than the typical SKK, (survival kit knife), that Case is known to have made at the same time I haven’t seen enough differences in this knife to ID it to another Case blade pattern than the Case 322-5 pattern.


There are no spacers between the guard and the pommel.


The guard is not brass. At the same time it’s not magnetic either. If it’s aluminum it sure is hard.


Anyway I’ve always kept it with some of my other curiosity knives as I just don’t know much about it. Now Franks got me wondering again. He’s done that before. :)

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Just to fill in the blank photo with the USN marked version of the bright blade as delivered to the Navy. Same as the previous other than the added U.S.N. mark on the left ricasso. This one has a name on the back of the sheath, but cannot quite make out the last name especially the middle 2 or 3 letters. Looks like Bylm??ton Lloyd F but can't really make it out.

 

It might be noted that this sheath has the handle retaining strap near the throat opening rather than near the top that the Army version has. A vet told me many years ago that the lower strap was unpopular as it made it more difficult to take the knife out of the sheath because the guard would catch on the strap. This complaint carried over into the first version of the Jet Pilot Knife and I have seen some of those sheaths that have had the low retaining strap removed.

 

post-66-0-85779800-1391893039.jpg

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  • 4 years later...

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