Early Navy DSM Foreign Award - ID help needed

[usmedalman]

I purchased this old WWI style Navy DSM from an auction in Germany several years ago. It appears to have come off a medal bar and I have always wondered what country used a style of bar that would have had medals attached in this manner. Can anyone help ID this. I was thinking probably French or British, maybe Italian?

 

Any help would be appreciated.

[Adam R]

Based on the style of the hinge behind the star, the medal appears to be WWI vintage. The European countries that had recipients of the USN DSM in WWI were England, France, Italy and Portugal.

[Wharfmaster]

Not British Commonwealth style.

 

 

W

[ColdWarRules]

My bet is it's Italian, looks like a style an Italian officer would of had it mounted.

 

-Nick

[LuftStalg1]

Very cool! Yup, certainly not French and the British has the smaller arch of a tab. I don't know what the Portuguese look's like. And simply based on proximity to Germany Portugal is just on the other side of Spain but Italy is just across Switzerland so it's a drawl in that respect.

 

Mark D.

[Dave]

Just thinking outside the box here...other than the fact that it was purchased from an auction in Germany, is there any other proof that it was awarded to a foreigner? Could it possibly have been an "awarding" example, with the metal tab to allow it to be hung from the pocket of a recipient during the award ceremony in lieu of having to pin on the actual medal? This is standard practice now and has been for years...the award recipients get the medal hung on them with either pins or a binder clip, and then that medal is turned back in after the ceremony for the actual medal in the presentation box.

 

Just a thought...

[usmedalman]

Just thinking outside the box here...other than the fact that it was purchased from an auction in Germany, is there any other proof that it was awarded to a foreigner? Could it possibly have been an "awarding" example, with the metal tab to allow it to be hung from the pocket of a recipient during the award ceremony in lieu of having to pin on the actual medal? This is standard practice now and has been for years...the award recipients get the medal hung on them with either pins or a binder clip, and then that medal is turned back in after the ceremony for the actual medal in the presentation box.

 

Just a thought...

 

Dave,

 

I really don't think it would be an awarding example. For two reasons, given the high ranking nature of a DSM recipient I think a formal pinning ceremony would have been the norm and all the photos I have of those indicate that the standard brooch was used. Also, at least in modern ceremonies, the recipient keeps the medal so the brooch is not removed from the medal, the medal is simply pinned to a butterfly clip.

 

But, anyone who has been around this hobby from more than a week has seen some pretty weird original stuff, so anything is possible.

[Dave]

 

But, anyone who has been around this hobby from more than a week has seen some pretty weird original stuff, so anything is possible.

 

 

In my opinion, I think it's going to be stuck at the "weird original stuff" category as none of the allied nations used that type of mount to mount medals - a survey looks like they (of all nations) either used long pins or the dogbone bars (most common to the French). The tab on this DSM makes it appear that it was made to be draped over an open pocket or open flap of some sort and be worn, alone, without having to formally mount it or wear it with other awards. I COULD technically be an award to a civilian...how many civilian awards of the Navy DSM were there during the pre-WW2 time period? (That's not a rhetorical question, I'm asking because I don't know...) The mount would then make sense...it would have the metal tab for being worn out of the pocket of a men's blazer or suit jacket.

 

In the absence of any other definite opinions, it's at least a good SWAG.

 

[Herman v]

This was worn by the awardee when in civilian clothes. Civilian or former military.

 

Just my 2 cents.....

 

Herman

[usmedalman]

 

 

In my opinion, I think it's going to be stuck at the "weird original stuff" category as none of the allied nations used that type of mount to mount medals - a survey looks like they (of all nations) either used long pins or the dogbone bars (most common to the French). The tab on this DSM makes it appear that it was made to be draped over an open pocket or open flap of some sort and be worn, alone, without having to formally mount it or wear it with other awards. I COULD technically be an award to a civilian...how many civilian awards of the Navy DSM were there during the pre-WW2 time period? (That's not a rhetorical question, I'm asking because I don't know...) The mount would then make sense...it would have the metal tab for being worn out of the pocket of a men's blazer or suit jacket.

 

In the absence of any other definite opinions, it's at least a good SWAG.

 

 

The civilian award, or wear by a veteran is an avenue that I had not thought of.

 

[usmedalman]

 

 

In my opinion, I think it's going to be stuck at the "weird original stuff" category as none of the allied nations used that type of mount to mount medals - a survey looks like they (of all nations) either used long pins or the dogbone bars (most common to the French). The tab on this DSM makes it appear that it was made to be draped over an open pocket or open flap of some sort and be worn, alone, without having to formally mount it or wear it with other awards. I COULD technically be an award to a civilian...how many civilian awards of the Navy DSM were there during the pre-WW2 time period? (That's not a rhetorical question, I'm asking because I don't know...) The mount would then make sense...it would have the metal tab for being worn out of the pocket of a men's blazer or suit jacket.

 

In the absence of any other definite opinions, it's at least a good SWAG.

 

 

The only US civilian to receive the Navy DSM was Thomas Edison (Now that would be one to own!). The only other civilians to earn the award were 4 British; G.H. Ashdown, J.H. Brooks, Sir E.H.T. d'Enycourt, and T.T. Sims.

[Dave]

 

The only US civilian to receive the Navy DSM was Thomas Edison (Now that would be one to own!). The only other civilians to earn the award were 4 British; G.H. Ashdown, J.H. Brooks, Sir E.H.T. d'Enycourt, and T.T. Sims.

 

Hmmmmmm...does anyone know where Edison's medal is?

[Garth Thompson]

I believe that is a French awarding clasp. The commonly encountered one is the two prong "U" shaped one but I have seen this one a couple of times used on their more senior enameled orders.

Garth

[F-X]

You can sometimes see this kind of clasp on french awards, but that's not common.

[JBFloyd]

If this was set up for the presentation, would it not retain its original brooch, even if the recipient would have immediately clipped off the brooch and added this device? I just don't see it likely that a US presenter would modify the medal. The recipient would have done it to suit his own needs.

[Ricardo]

I have some french medals with same style ... All from pos WW1 ... 20's ...

[usmedalman]

I have some french medals with same style ... All from pos WW1 ... 20's ...

 

Ricardo,

 

Would you be able to post a picture of one, or email it to me?

 

John

jstrandberg@yahoo.com

[Ricardo]

Hi John,

 

Sure!!

 

In my collection blog:

 

http://ww2militarymemoirs.blogspot.com.br/2012/06/medaille-commemorative-de-syrie-cilicie.html

 

Ricardo.

[Dave]

Hi John,

 

Sure!!

 

In my collection blog:

 

http://ww2militarymemoirs.blogspot.com.br/2012/06/medaille-commemorative-de-syrie-cilicie.html

 

Ricardo.

 

Very nice! Looks like the same thing!

 

http://ww2militarymemoirs.blogspot.com.br/2012/06/medaille-commemorative-de-syrie-cilicie.html

[usmedalman]

Very nice! Looks like the same thing!

 

http://ww2militarymemoirs.blogspot.com.br/2012/06/medaille-commemorative-de-syrie-cilicie.html

 

Ricardo,

 

Very nice blog! Thanks for the picture, now I only have to figure out which of the 52 DSMs award to French naval officers this is... sadly I probably will never know.

 

One other question comes to mind; how would this presentation attachment have been used? Was it just for the award ceremony or would it have been attached somehow to the uniform when medals were worn on other occasions?

[Ricardo]

Hi,

 

Thanks for the feedback about my blog.

 

In France I once saw a device made of felt with metallic base which owned about six equal waits for this medal. This device was secured with fasteners in uniform who were trapped in loops in uniform.

 

Ricardo.