USMC Special Full Dress Uniform Epaulettes c. 1918

[patrick_usmc]

Hey guys,

I recently purchased one of my crown jewels, a 1918 USMC Special Full Dress Uniform, (Page 271 of Equipping the Corps by Alec Tulkoff) belonging to Richard Folsom Cleveland, the son of President Grover Cleveland.Richard Cleveland attended the 2nd Officers Training Class in 1918, and was commissioned a Second Lieutenant in late 1918. Cleveland was sent to Peking China, and was attached to the American Legation Guard Detachment until late 1919. He was the officer in charge of artillery drills and machine guns while in Peking. He was promoted to First Lieutenant in Jan 1919 and was discharged at that rank in Oct 1919. Cleveland attended Princeton University after the war and later Harvard Law School. He spent his life practicing law in Baltimore, Maryland. He died in 1974. I was just wondering if any of y'all knew where I could get some EGAs for the epaulettes. I'll also include some photos below. Thanks!

[ludwigh1980]

So you got it. Great uniform and rare. I have been looking for one myself.

Thanks for showing.

[normaninvasion]

Pretty amazing piece. Any period pictures of the EGAs that went on Cleveland's boards? If it were mine, I would try to match what he wore, if possible. Jeff

[patrick_usmc]

Pretty amazing piece. Any period pictures of the EGAs that went on Cleveland's boards? If it were mine, I would try to match what he wore, if possible. Jeff

I found one picture (in Equipping the Corps) of then 2nd Lt. Pedro Del Valle wearing the exact same uniform when he was stationed in D.C. in 1915, which would mean it'd be in the 1912 uniform regulations . I think if I can find a copy in print or online of the 1912 uniform regulations, the illustrations in the back will help me. In the 1937 regs (which I can scan and send to anyone who needs it, if anyone needs it) there are some detailed photos of epaulettes and shoulder knots and the EGAs that go with them. So based on the 1937 regs, I'm going to assume the 1912 regs have illustrations as well. If anyone knows where I can get the 1912 and 1917 regs (Cleveland's uniform is dated 1918 but it should be the same as Del Valle's) please let me know. Jeff, i'm definitely going to match what Cleveland had. I eventually want to display this in some museum, so I also need some advice. Should I add other uniform accessories to make the uniform complete (Hat, belt, etc...) or should I leave it as is with the exception of adding EGAs? Personally, i'm leaning toward the latter option, as this uniform did belong to the son of a President. Thanks guys!

[Brig]

The actual pronged-back emblems for these boards bring about $3500-$5000 IF you can find a loose pair. Every pair I've seen as a pair have still been on boards, and they pop up very rarely, being highly sought by EGA collectors. If you were feeling the urge to put some on there, an early pair of pinback emblems used on collars and shoulder knots could be an option, easier to find and not necessarily wrong as this Marine did serve into and beyond WWI

 

I see nothing wrong with adding a belt for display purposes, provided it's period original and if you ever sell you disclose that fact to the buyer

[normaninvasion]

Couldn't have said it better than Brig. If you haven't already, I would hire a researcher to pull his file. Also look at Pres. Cleveland biographies, maybe a museum, for photos. Contact Marine Corps History Division. I think you have a great project, take your time! Jeff

[patrick_usmc]

The actual pronged-back emblems for these boards bring about $3500-$5000 IF you can find a loose pair. Every pair I've seen as a pair have still been on boards, and they pop up very rarely, being highly sought by EGA collectors. If you were feeling the urge to put some on there, an early pair of pinback emblems used on collars and shoulder knots could be an option, easier to find and not necessarily wrong as this Marine did serve into and beyond WWI

 

I see nothing wrong with adding a belt for display purposes, provided it's period original and if you ever sell you disclose that fact to the buyer

Thanks! I've found one on the same site I bought the uniform on, and it's an early pinback. Its for $125. Is that a good price for one of those? I've never dealt with one of these before so I really appreciate the help!

[patrick_usmc]

Couldn't have said it better than Brig. If you haven't already, I would hire a researcher to pull his file. Also look at Pres. Cleveland biographies, maybe a museum, for photos. Contact Marine Corps History Division. I think you have a great project, take your time! Jeff

I hadn't thought of contacting USMCHC, so thanks for the idea. Will do. And of course, i'll take my time!

[Brig]

The Meyers pair? 1920's-30's, what you'd probably want to go with is a Gemsco style, perhaps marked 'Silver' and 'Gold'

[patrick_usmc]

The Meyers pair? 1920's-30's, what you'd probably want to go with is a Gemsco style, perhaps marked 'Silver' and 'Gold'

Okay thanks! I'm having trouble uploading more photos, can anyone help?

[Brig]

your images need to be below 250K to load directly...you can crop, resize, etc

 

Also, you could utilize a photo service like photobucket

[patrick_usmc]

it isn't that clear of a photo, but you can see where there was an EGA. It's lighter around the middle of the brass crescent, where the EGA would go.

[Brig]

3 prong back type, it appears

[Brig]

Perhaps similar to these known 3 prong types...

[patrick_usmc]

Perhaps similar to these known 3 prong types...

Thanks. I'll keep my eyes open for some of those. I imagine that they're very few and far between though, right?

[Brig]

Scarcer than hen's teeth...even harder to find off of the boards. The average selling price seems to be between 4-5 K at auction

[Bob Hudson]

Scarcer than hen's teeth...even harder to find off of the boards. The average selling price seems to be between 4-5 K at auction

 

A forum member happily paid me $3,000 cash for this pair about six or so years ago so I could see that $4-5K being feasible today.

 

[Brig]

A pair of boards with emblems similar to the first one posted sold 2-3 years back for $5000, the pair listed with the first emblem I posted was about $4500, and I saw a single board with emblem sell a few months back for about $2000. I believe another pair displayed in the reference forum was sold at $5000.

 

That said, the boards themselves aren't all that highly sought by themselves, it's the emblems that make the value...a nice set of boards would probably bring $500-1000 stripped

 

And Bob, I'd happily pay you that today!

[Bob Hudson]

For those who wonder about the prices on these: consider the small size of the Marine Corps in those days. In the 20 or so years before WWI, the Corps had as few as 75 officers at any one time so there just was not much made for them. Plus, the officers insignia of that era was made by jewelers who produced some very artful pieces.

 

We have a thread on USMC force sizes at various times at http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/9349-usmc-force-sizes-how-rare-are-egas/

[Brig]

Additionally, I'm sure every officer didn't rush out and buy a set of these boards unless he was planning on being present at some VERY formal events. Kind of like the evening mess jacket today...people don't tend to buy them until they reach Battalion Staff level or get stationed at Quantico/DC

[Leatherneck72]

Here's another good view you guys might like. I have multiple angles of this Marine in the same sitting.

 

S/F,

 

Brian

[Brig]

The first flat top, perhaps? Trend setter

 

Any close-ups of the EGA's in any of those? Is that a BB&B on the cover. Love the image

 

Interesting to see how loose his belt hangs

[cutiger83]

Here's another good view you guys might like. I have multiple angles of this Marine in the same sitting.

 

 

Is this the officer, Cleveland, mentioned in this thread? If you don't mind, I would love to see more angles of the Marine.

 

...Kat

[Leatherneck72]

Brig, that isn't his uniform belt. If you look closely it is part of the sword hanger system.

[Brig]

Brig, that isn't his uniform belt. If you look closely it is part of the sword hanger system.

Have had a few quality beers...I see a leather (?) belt as well now