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doyler

M2 helmet General Robert Frederick

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I couldn't tell you Ron, I've only got these few photo's I had from several years ago. I don't own it but, there was quite a bit of provenance with it including a 1969 dated letter concerning the helmet from Stanford University and one from the former FSSF trooper who had donated it and then got it back.

 

Thanks Scott.

 

Just curious as I have been intrested in Gen.Frederick for over 30 years.

 

I wonder if his M2 is so stamped or other pieces of his property.Maybe his daughter would know.Never heard how much of his stuff is out there or where its located.If its with the family or at the Presidio as I believe he is interred there.

 

One thing that nibbles at me is why a General would toss his helmet?Officers were subject to different rules than enlisted and Generals were top of the food chain.I have seen and owned several Captains helmets and higher ranks.Seems officers (more commonly) kept their helmets and Generals would be even more apt to do so.They had the means and status.

 

Also I cant figure why he would have a M2 in the Aluetians with Cols insignia,then a M2 in Italy with one star to trade it in for a fix bail then back to a M2 in March of 45(shown in his medal award ceremony).I just figured at this date in the war or after his transfer from the FSSF in 1944 (when it disbanded to) the command of the 45th the M2 would not be in stock in theatre to isue him one after he tossed the fix bail.I can see a M2 being repaired but would think if he got additional helmets they wuld have been fixed bail at this late point in the war.Guess its a nystery to me and be a fun project to research both helmets or to research any personal pictures the family may have.I have heard his daughter was often at the reunions and had at times sold off Force items she aquired from association members.

 

Another thought is maybe he aquired the fix bail after one of his woundings in Italy? Lost the helmet in battle and replaced it.Hard to say.This is one of those helmets that if it could speak would really have a story.

 

Thanks for posting the pictures.It has added a lot to the topic.

 

RD


In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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Recenty found this picture of General Frederick after recieving the DSM.The photo was resized but when enlarged the D-rings are very clear.

 

post-342-0-03390700-1431669690.jpg


In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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doyler, is that General Frederick in your avatar picture? :)

No Sir

 

Its a photo that has always spoken to me.He was a Canadian officer and went MIA in Italy.He is seen in several of the well published photos.I have his name listed in the bottom of my posts.Never have been able to find out much about him.


In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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One thing that nibbles at me is why a General would toss his helmet?Officers were subject to different rules than enlisted and Generals were top of the food chain.I have seen and owned several Captains helmets and higher ranks.Seems officers (more commonly) kept their helmets and Generals would be even more apt to do so.They had the means and status.

 

Also I cant figure why he would have a M2 in the Aleutians with Cols insignia,then a M2 in Italy with one star to trade it in for a fix bail then back to a M2 in March of 45(shown in his medal award ceremony).I just figured at this date in the war or after his transfer from the FSSF in 1944 (when it disbanded to) the command of the 45th the M2 would not be in stock in theatre to issue him one after he tossed the fix bail.I can see a M2 being repaired but would think if he got additional helmets they wuld have been fixed bail at this late point in the war.Guess its a mystery to me and be a fun project to research both helmets or to research any personal pictures the family may have.I have heard his daughter was often at the reunions and had at times sold off Force items she acquired from association members.

 

Another thought is maybe he acquired the fix bail after one of his woundings in Italy? Lost the helmet in battle and replaced it.Hard to say.This is one of those helmets that if it could speak would really have a story.

 

RD

 

Ron,

 

You bring up some very interesting points regarding officer's helmets. I imagine General's did get away with a lot more than others. :) Your post sparked my curiosity so I started looking at the two pictures of the helmets side by side. It appears to me that the "white splotch" on the helmet in the period picture of Frederick is farther forward than the modern picture. It looks to be more on the top of the helmet in the modern picture. Also, I have been looking at the distance between the star and the white splotch. The distance looks to be shorter in the period picture of Frederick. It could be my old eyes but the white splotch doesn't look quite the same. It would be nice if we had a front view of the modern helmet. It might help in the comparison.

 

As you said...If the helmets could only speak.....Kat

 

Fred2.jpgFred.jpg

 


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That's interesting.I thought he normally used the T with his name or initials...Robert Tyron Frederick.

 

Ron,

 

You bring up an interesting point with this too. When looking at these letters, I first thought they looked more clean and crisp than I would expect. Wouldn't they have rubbed off more being inside where it would rub against the liner? Is this paint rather than ink? If so, wouldn't paint have rubbed off more? Just wondering....

 

....Kat


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Kat

 

I would say its paint that was used with a rubber stamp of some type.Likely individual letters You can see one letter is off set higher than the other.There does appear to be more wear on the steel shell under the stamped letters.


In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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Ron,

 

I thought it looked like paint. Wouldn't paint rub off more? The fact that these letters look so clear is another aspect of the helmet that makes me wonder.

 

...Kat


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Wanted to ask if anyone has more photos of General Frederick during the war and add them to the topic if you do.

 

Thanks


In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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My small contribution to this post, I acquired some original paperwork of Fredericks some years ago and retained this for my collection - passing the paperwork to a friend.

post-329-0-57444100-1502294198.jpg

post-329-0-18685500-1502294238_thumb.jpg

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Bob

 

Thanks for the post

 

Is this a cut down section of the Das Dicke sticker or a decal on paper??


In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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Here is a well published photo of General Federick.

 

I have always been curious if there are others in the national archives or if the family may have other war time photos.

 

 

post-342-0-73736700-1502300037.jpg

 

 

often this photo is cropped and nice to see this version as you see both officers and also a person just to the far right slightly out of the main frame.


In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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Bob

 

Thanks for the post

 

Is this a cut down section of the Das Dicke sticker or a decal on paper??

 

It may have been, but there were two versions of the "sticker" issued - one with the saying and one without as posted.

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There is another book that has some history of the general it's called the devil's body guard, it's about a trooper Duff Mattson. He was Fredrick's personnel body guard. A couple of good stories about him.

 

Sent from my XT1031 using Tapatalk

 

 


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I should mention the officer with General Frederick is Lt Col Robert L Moore CO 2 Regt-2nd Bn Anzio date 15.4.1944


In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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It may have been, but there were two versions of the "sticker" issued - one with the saying and one without as posted.

 

Thanks BOB

 

Only lucky enough to get one sticker from Forceman and radio operator Alfred Smith


In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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I should mention the officer with General Frederick is Lt Col Robert L Moore CO 2 Regt-2nd Bn Anzio date 15.4.1944

 

I see the unit history has Moore Listed as HQ 2nd Regiment and Listed as Robert S Moore. THe photo credit may have misspelled his middle initial


In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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There is another book that has some history of the general it's called the devil's body guard, it's about a trooper Duff Mattson. He was Fredrick's personnel body guard. A couple of good stories about him.

 

Sent from my XT1031 using Tapatalk

 

Thanks Bill

 

I may have to get a copy.Thats one I hadn't read yet.


In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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I had the opportunity to hold and examine the fixed bail one star helmet Frederick helmet. It is truly a fantastic piece of history. One of my friends now owns it. I think he is on the forum maybe he will post something?

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I had the opportunity to hold and examine the fixed bail one star helmet Frederick helmet. It is truly a fantastic piece of history. One of my friends now owns it. I think he is on the forum maybe he will post something?

I hope so too as I'm not convinced the General had a swivel bail .


In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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D-Bail alert!

 

Love that picture....This says volumes to me.

If I'm not mistaken this is the same picture in Anzio but a different angle of General Frederick and Col.Moore.In the picture posted by Burning hazard you see the back of a Sherman off to the left and the road and trees in the distance look to be the same.

 

I have always though the helmet in the General Frederick/Col Moore photo was a D bail M2 as the angle of the staps and bales conform more with an M2 than a swivel.THe swivel just don't have the same flare and when you see the original photo at a distance you cant see any detail and blowing it up just distors the view but not the angle.Great photo and one I hadn't seen or found.


In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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post-342-0-73736700-1502300037.jpg

 

 

 

post-8715-0-11778600-1502312334.jpg

 

 

 

Looks like same day same place.You can even see the strap for his binoculars in both pictures.


In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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