WW2 HBT question...

[HolyHappiness]

Ok some back story. The other day I got in an argument with a reenacter in regards to HBT's. I was representing the basic equip of a soldier in the MTO. He started chewing me out saying that I look completely unauthentic. He kept claiming that they were mostly only used as a combat uniform during the Normandy campaigns. I know I've seen pictures of them being used in combat in every theater of operations but he kept telling me that they only really used them in the pacific and in Normandy, anywhere else would be very rare in anything but a rear echelon role. The guy was older and seem to be a collector/reenacter for much longer than I. Like I said, I know I've seen pictures but after this I'm doubting myself... How widespread was the use of HBT's in a combat role?

 

Thanks for any help.

Nathan

[jkash23686]

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=269169

 

 

There ya go shoot him this link.

[HolyHappiness]

I should clarify. I was meaning 1st and 2nd pattern HBT's, not the camo ones.

[ThompsonSavage]

It might be easier if you specify on which HBT spec you need info. There are still a lot of collectors and reinactors who mix their HBT 'patterns' up and get it wrong.

 

Jackets

 

Spec No. 45

Pre-war design, light OD, waist adjusting tabs, no gas flap, hem band, no provision for attaching a hood, small pockets with 'cut off corners'

 

Spec No. 45B

1942 design, light OD, expanding cargo pockets on the chest, no hem band, no gas flap, no provision for attaching a hood, no waist adjusting tabs

 

Spec No. 45B (Special)

Same spec as Spec No. 45B but with gas flap and buttons to attach hood

 

Spec No. 45D

1943, same as Spec No. 45B (Special) but now in OD7, variations of pocket pleats have been observed with different makers (In my opinion the pleats were a variation, not a new pattern. It seems the choice of pleat was optional for manufacturers)

 

Spec No. 375 (Camo HBT)

Resembles Spec No. 45D, hidden buttons, reinforced elbows, pockets on green side

 

Spec No. 45E

Basically the same as Spec No. 45D but with simplified pockets (smaller size, squared or 'cut off corner' design), has small pencil sleeve inside pocket, very late introduction date (if issued at all during WWII)

 

Trousers

 

Spec No. 6-254 (same as trousers, cotton, khaki)

Pre-war design, light OD, white lining, no thigh pockets, 'narrow' shape

 

Spec No. 42A (1942) and 42C (3/10/43)

Light OD, expanding thigh pockets, gas flap, 'baggy' shape

 

Spec No. 42C (OD7) with revision 1/15/44 (Spec P.Q.D. No. 339, P.O. No. 3954)

Same as Spec No. 42A and 42C but in OD7, variations in pocket pleats (middle/rear pleat)

 

Spec 374 (6/3/44)

Camo trousers, 1943, ankle tabs, hidden buttons (except waist), knee patches

 

[patches]

OD HBTs thoughout both the MTO and ETO were most common, take way after Normandy and the U.S. pushed foward, HBT shirts could be found or were worn underneath field jackets, M41 and M43, the M43 pants could be seen being worn over the wool pants, all this being done for extra warmth as the weather started getting colder.

 

Shown here below is the M43 pants worn by the assistant Machine Gunner in 1945, Remagen?

 

['Flage Guy]

Nathan, which phase of the MTO were you reenacting? Knowing this will be a big help in researching.

[patches]

April 1945 Northern Italy, 1st Armored Division's 6th Armored Infantry Battalion.

 

HBTs are seen here.

 

 

 

[HolyHappiness]

I was representing 1st AD Spring Offensive 1945... Patches post was exactly what I was reenacting.

[patches]

I was representing 1st AD Spring Offensive 1945... Patches post was exactly what I was reenacting.

What a find.

 

 

EDIT

 

UH OH, found the photo again on another site this one the 29th Inf Div, see page below photo at the bottom, not sure then if it was taken in 1945, could be Brittany in September 1944 as we do see the Buckle Tops, hard to know now, HMM Brittany, they still had the helmets with the chin straps buckled under the chin right?

 

http://users.telenet.be/mywillysmb/29th.html

 

 

 

But be of good cheer, the HBT were used at certain periods as outer uniforms as mentioned thoughout the MTO and ETO up till VE Day.

 

 

[Baron3-6]

Guess what I even saw a picture of the 326th Airborne Engineers (101st) wearing HBTs.... or at least one of the guys who drove a glider-borne bulldozer wearing HBT pants. I assume he was issued them because it was a work uniform and he was an equipment operator they expected to get covered in grease (?).

 

Either way, HBTs were common in armored units, infantry units, etc.....always mixed in heavily with wool's and M1943 field uniforms. Unless you're wearing the 1945 patterns and reenacting Kasserine pass, chances are you're not too far off from correct. Basic sense and logic, and look at pictures. Oh BTW, this is why 75%+ of all normal events are "end of the war" type scenarios- to avoid the inevitable squabble of when buckle top boots got to the front......

[HolyHappiness]

Thanks for all the help guys!

[Kilroy]

Just as added clarification. In the MTO, generalized use of HBT uniforms by Infantry combat elements only happened in two cases: the 1st Infantry Division in Sicily, and the 1st Armored Division from the Anzio breakout up to the end of summer (beginning of the Northern Apennines campaign); and if the photo posted by Patches is captioned correctly (it may, nothing in the picture contradicts that), maybe also during the Po Valley offensive (April, 1945) - but I would need more evidence to draw general conclusions on this last point.

 

By this, I am referencing to the generalized use of HBT uniforms as such, not necessarily over woolen OD's.

 

HBT's were used by all other Infantry units basically the same as in the ETO: by some (few), sometimes (seldom), alone or combined with OD's. Woolen OD's, however, were the almost universal rule with the two above mentioned exceptions, also during the hot Summers in 1943 and 1944.

 

Artillery, Engineers, Armored, QMC, etc., used HBT's much more frequently, as usual. But, again, the 1st Armored Division tankers were almost the only ones to use HBT's on a generalized basis, most independent Tank battalions crews in Italy used OD's much more often than HBT's.

 

 

Cheers