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IS THIS WING GOOD? Post your requests here!


John Cooper
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Last thing I want to be is the forum police, but we should probably try to be really polite and nice on this thread in particular.  Often times the posters will get bad news and sending things back that you bought on eBay isn't a major crime (I am always very polite but it is frequently difficult to accurately assess something on the internet vs in hand).  Also, to be fair, Donald didn't say he wanted input on the wings, just that he didn't like them and was sending them back.  My assumption is that he was hoping someone would say "No don't do it, that is the way they were made". 

 

Ultimately it is your collection so you should chose what you want.  I just wish I had access to the brains on this forum when I first started collecting. There are some really great and bright collectors who are more than happy to share.

 

P

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2 hours ago, Basic Rifleman said:

Every set of "General Insignia" made wings I could find online had the same, rough backs; Same as their other WWII era Army insignia. Superior quality was not their selling point for sure, perhaps they were a low cost manufacturer. I've also seen writings linking "General Insignia Inc." of NY with Bell Trading Post. 

 

IMHO, there was nothing wrong with the wings you purchased. The fact you'd buy something before doing any homework; show them here and then return them to a seller based solely on the fact nobody replied to your post in a timely manner is just bad business. 

 

As a sometimes eBay seller, I'd love it if you could post (or PM me) your eBay name so I can add you to my blocked bidders list.  

If you had this in your hands you would agree it didn't seem authentic, dont use the block bitter list

 

3 hours ago, dmar836 said:

?? But you bought it.

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Yeah, I'm not trying to be critical, Donald. My "You bought it" comment was in response to, "... i feel awful that some purchaser bought it for $44.00"

That buyer took the same risk you took and may or may not return them.

No offense intended,

Dave

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1 hour ago, pfrost said:

Last thing I want to be is the forum police, but we should probably try to be really polite and nice on this thread in particular.  Often times the posters will get bad news and sending things back that you bought on eBay isn't a major crime (I am always very polite but it is frequently difficult to accurately assess something on the internet vs in hand).  Also, to be fair, Donald didn't say he wanted input on the wings, just that he didn't like them and was sending them back.  My assumption is that he was hoping someone would say "No don't do it, that is the way they were made". 

 

Ultimately it is your collection so you should chose what you want.  I just wish I had access to the brains on this forum when I first started collecting. There are some really great and bright collectors who are more than happy to share.

 

P

you were right in that assumption thanks

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All,

Just thought I would chime in; I agree completely with Patrick’s comment “we should probably try to be really polite and nice on this thread in particular”.  However, I think the frustration expressed by Basic Rifleman is this new trend on eBay to treat it like it is Amazon.  As a more and more infrequent seller on eBay, (I have been on eBay since 1998, and was once a Power Seller) their new policies regarding returns have become somewhat odious for sellers.

Basically, you have to accept any return for any reason and in many cases you get stuck with the return shipping regardless of your policies. As a hobbyist, and not a retail outlet, it really does bother me when it costs me money to list something just so somebody can look at it and then send it back, like Amazon.  I am not saying that was the case with donaldnol, but as collectors it is our responsibility, I believe, to do our due diligence before purchasing things from sellers that aren't on Amazon.

This isn't to say that if somebody mis-describes something you shouldn't return it, I've always accepted returns if I screw up, but this current trend of buying something just to check it out and then returning it at the seller’s expense has many people upset.

I also agree with Patrick's comment regarding I wish I had access to the brains on this forum when I started collecting (as he is one of those brains), but I think many younger collectors are tending to rely too much on the Internet for quick response and result. I probably have $600+ dollars’ worth of reference books on U.S. military collectibles alone,  a ton just on wings. I doubt most new collectors have one of these volumes.

Sorry for the long treatise here, it's just been something that has been bothering me a lot lately and has caused me to really reduce my selling activity for militaria on eBay.

 

Just my two cents ( well more like 50 cents),

 

Paul

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my fault i guess i shouldn't had bid on these, you couldn't see the pic's clearly enough, anyway thats over with. more than likely i will never take pictures for granted

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When in doubt, I usually ask if they have a return policy.  Sometimes pictures just aren't good enough, so I also ask for better pictures.  If I do decide that I want to return something (rare, but it does happen), I always offer to pay for shipping costs and any listing fees. Seems only fair to me.  I have found being polite and reasonable goes far with most dealers!

 

Still, caveat emptor as they say.  Its your collection, its your responsibility.

 

Again, always be polite and reasonable, ask questions before hand, GET your own knowledge and research done first (as best you can) and I think it can all make this hobby as enjoyable and stress free as possible.

 

Back in the day, eBay was sometimes like a tame version of the wild west, an Arabian souk, and a Chinese opium den. Oh the stories.... I think a little adult supervision has helped, even if it has made some of the drama less enjoyable.

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Basic Rifleman

I was hoping this exchange would quickly get buried in the thread, but being it's still front and center I'll say this... In re-reading it, I admit my words could have been chosen better.

 

This is not a hill worth dying on for sure, but I still very much stand by the premise that returns should be reserved exclusively for misrepresentation on the part of the seller. I buy hundreds of items each year and can't think of the last time I had to return an item. If I take a chance on an item (don't know exactly what I'm buying - don't do adequate research, etc.) and it turns out to be not quite what I was expecting (or hoping for) then I chalk it up as a lesson learned. Never have I bought an item and then couldn't get an answer of "what is it" in a timely fashion and then return it at the sellers expense. In this case, the wing was good (and made by a somewhat scarce maker) so maybe that's why I was upset. Some eBay seller trying to make a living, or the more likely case, come up with extra money (let's be honest, no one sells $30 wings on eBay because they're a millionaire living on the beach somewhere) had to spend time, energy, and money to list the item, accommodate this return, and then re-list. Cost of doing business on the WWW? Maybe... but this is not an eBay issue, this is an issue with making one's own indecisiveness someone else's problem, so I called it out. Doing so publically was in poor taste. I'll haze myself later...

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I'll post a funny story about ebay and returns before returning you to your normally scheduled thread.  When I was a beginning collector and ebay was just starting out I bid on and won an Amcraft observer wing and was very excited as it would have been my first observer wing.  I was crushed when it arrived and the shoulders didn't look quite right (the pictures were very dark) and the pin was on backwards.  I struggled with it's authenticity for a few days and then contacted the seller for a return.  She was very gracious and the transaction ended quickly and friendly.  About six months later I realized that I had returned a Beverlycraft Observer that I thought was a fake Amcraft observer and I had won it for $50.  Sigh.  I'm still on the hunt for a Beverlycraft observer to this day.  That was right around the time I decided to start my site so I could see a lot more wings and advance my knowledge.  Bought every book I could find and the addiction grew and here I am today still going at it.  Just not as quickly and a lot more educated.

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Several thoughts come to mind.

 

As for wing buying, I collect only AAF items only but never specifically wings. I have some on uniforms and a handful loose but I did get the bug about a year ago to pick up some variations and found there was a lot to learn. Unfortunately, I did quickly notice there are wing enthusiast/buyers that I simply cannot keep up with. It's as if winning an auction matters more than what is bought. When wings sell so quickly regardless of price, period, rarity, and even known authenticity, I see I can't play that "home buyers" game just to get my hands on them. This is even with the mundane wings most already have. I need to learn about them while I am buying. When things are snapped up, posted for identification, resold, or returned so flippantly, and the whole thing so repeated so quickly and frequently, they feel like items I don't need to deal with. I felt I must move quickly and pay whatever or be left with the dregs. I can't learn if I go that fast and IMO careless errors reinforce making repeat errors more likely. I began to feel, while learning about wings from the knowledgeable guys here, that the info was becoming a bit diluted - harder to stay firmly on that steep learning curve. Learning about wings should not be studying the fakes significantly more than the authentic ones IMO but that is what I see. I hope no one takes offense, it's a big collecting world out there and I'm not playing victim, but I simply decided after a few to quit studying and buying wings. Maybe I'll get back into them some day. 

 

As for the wing books, my perception(very possibly incorrect) of most older books is that they were written prior to the restrikes and all out fakes we see on the market today(duh, right?). The few books I've seen referenced appear to be mostly B&W pictures of how a specific contractor's pattern should appear rather than details that would help me assess real wings from various contractors. Prior to the web we didn't even know what was available out there. Like Cole's knife books, they show what the various items are but not how to assess them for authenticity. The dangers of "better" info are obvious so maybe the point is moot. Context and cross comparison takes time and that';s the kind of learning this is for me. I have learned a lot from you guys here - sometimes what not to do.😆 Mark Imel, locally, helped me a lot at a show but otherwise it's here. Info needs to be repeated for learning and I've been skipping class. I need my info to be conservative, basic, and clean.

 

Just opining,

Dave

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The Rooster

I get why someone who finds a wing that seems extra special thats for sale on ebay, would not post it on here to ask opinions before the sale. It may be something found that few people have seen due to it being miss marked or in the wrong category. Maybe the person does not want to announce its there.

Its best to search this forum and search Bobs site and glean out as much info and pics ro study before bidding on a wing.

This forum and Bobs site and sites that sell ww2 wings are the best place to research before putting any money into it.

When I was a novice I made a few real nice scores early on, and I got burned a couple times too.

Best to spend the time if you find a wing you want, to look over authentic examples on the web and compare them to whats being auctioned.

Research. I found what looked like an ATC half wing radio operator wing going for $100.00. I thought it was real but I didnt know and I didnt want to post it

here and ask questions because no body was bidding on it. I didnt want to attract attention to it.

I got the wing and it was a real one. Worth 5 times what I paid, so I dont blame the OP for not asking here first.

 

The way I knew the ATC wing was the real deal was because of this great forum.

 

this site https://www.militaryaviationartifacts.com/wings.htm

 

Bobs great site,

 

https://www.ww2wings.com/

 

and flying tiger antiques and others..

 

I did my research.

 

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Basic Rifleman
11 minutes ago, The Rooster said:

I get why someone who finds a wing that seems extra special thats for sale on ebay, would not post it on here to ask opinions before the sale.

I'm not sure anyone hinted that he should. I think what most have said is it's important to do research, whatever that looks like, before buying an item.

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The Rooster

I did my research. Thats the best way. In my opinion. That is whats worked for me.

 

This forum is a fountain of knowledge.

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The Rooster
4 minutes ago, Basic Rifleman said:

I'm not sure anyone hinted that he should. I think what most have said is it's important to do research, whatever that looks like, before buying an item.

Im just putting in my 2 cents BR.

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18 minutes ago, The Rooster said:

I get why someone who finds a wing that seems extra special thats for sale on ebay, would not post it on here to ask opinions before the sale. It may be something found that few people have seen due to it being miss marked or in the wrong category. Maybe the person does not want to announce its there.

Its best to search this forum and search Bobs site and glean out as much info and pics ro study before bidding on a wing.

This forum and Bobs site and sites that sell ww2 wings are the best place to research before putting any money into it.

When I was a novice I made a few real nice scores early on, and I got burned a couple times too.

Best to spend the time if you find a wing you want, to look over authentic examples on the web and compare them to whats being auctioned.

Research. I found what looked like an ATC half wing radio operator wing going for $100.00. I thought it was real but I didnt know and I didnt want to post it

here and ask questions because no body was bidding on it. I didnt want to attract attention to it.

I got the wing and it was a real one. Worth 5 times what I paid, so I dont blame the OP for not asking here first.

 

The way I knew the ATC wing was the real deal was because of this great forum.

 

this site https://www.militaryaviationartifacts.com/wings.htm

 

Bobs great site,

 

https://www.ww2wings.com/

 

and flying tiger antiques and others..

 

I did my research.

 

i also look on the M A A page to

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The Rooster

One more thing that I have noticed about the wing section on this forum.  Even before I joined I noticed it.

Wing collectors are Gentlemen and Gentlewomen. Ive had many many good experiences in the wings forum.

There is another forum on here that is very prone to disagreements and downright hostility.

 

But the Wings forum is not that.

I've learned a lot here and still learning and I want to thank you all that have helped me along.

Saved me many times.

 

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Some forums actually have rules about commenting on ongoing auctions or sales.  As a young collector, I was firmly against those restrictions.  After many years in the hobby, I now fully understand why such guidelines come into being.

 

Over the years, I developed a personal policy.  I will not publicly comment on any piece that is currently on the docket for auction or up on the barrow for sale.  After having been threatened (police reports were filed), I have come to the belief that it is just not worth the trouble.  If someone wants my opinion, I will happily provide it --  Send me an email or PM.

 

I've learned that reasons are as varied as people.  Some are looking to score a diamond in the rough.  Others are trying to fleece the unsuspecting.  In the internet-enabled era of instant gratification, some just want to "crowd source" knowledge and not deal with the perceived hassle of learning themselves.  

 

With respect to the wings I deal with, the prices are not trivial.  So if someone wants purchase advice, I will happily provide my opinions.  But I will no longer do so publicly.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, The Rooster said:

One more thing that I have noticed about the wing section on this forum.  Even before I joined I noticed it.

Wing collectors are Gentlemen and Gentlewomen. Ive had many many good experiences in the wings forum.

There is another forum on here that is very prone to disagreements and downright hostility.

 

But the Wings forum is not that.

I've learned a lot here and still learning and I want to thank you all that have helped me along.

Saved me many times.

 

Many of the "old time" wing collectors used to deal with true giants in the hobby like the late G. Duncan Campbell. Duncan was a true sage in the world of wing collecting and wrote some of the earliest references on the subject. I recall as a young collector meeting him and asking him questions. Duncan NEVER brushed me off. He always gave me his full, undivided attention, and he treated me seriously and gave me respect. Here I am some 45 years after first meeting him, and I always try to treat other collectors as peers. I treat others as they treat me. You will find that most wing collectors are cut from the same cloth, and treat others like Duncan Campbell treated us.

 

There is a faction of wing collectors that seem to have come out of the ranks of the Nazi collectors, and they treat others like potential marks. They don't seem to have any problems passing fakes on to other collectors and they tend to try to prey on the unknowing. I would encourage you to ask questions, and to provide input when you can. A close-knit fraternity of collectors is the best way to keep fakes out of the hobby.

 

Allan

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Noooooo Chris... I wanna know, and I want to know NOW!  Tell me what to believe so I can believe what I think!  LOL.


But hey, don't believe me.... This is kind of where my reference book collection petered out.  I think if you HAVE to have a reference, the ones in bold are the ones to have.

 

Cambell, J. Duncan.  Aviation Badges and Insignia of the United States 1913-1946.  1977.  The Triangle Press. 

 

Carroll, Warren.  Eagles Recalled.  Air Force Wings of Canada, Great Britain and the British Commonwealth 1913-1945.  1997.  Schiffer Publishing Ltd.  Atglen, PA. 

 

Chalif, Don and Bender, Roger. Military Pilot & Aircrew Badges of the World (1870-Present). Vol 1, Europe (Albania-Hungary).  1982.  R. J. Bender Publishing. 

 

Fitzsimmons, Charles.  Thirty years of U.S. Army Pilot Wings.  1917-1947.  1994. 

 

Huff, Russ.  Wings of World War 2.  and various others, including semi-annual Wings and Things news letter...mostly published. in the mid 1980's. 

 

Maguire, Jon.  Silver Wings, Pinks and Greens.  1996.  Schiffer Publishing Ltd.  Atglen, PA. 

 

Maguire, Jon.  More Silver Wings, Pinks and Greens.  1997.  Schiffer Publishing Ltd.  Atglen, PA.

 

Morris, Terry. United States Army Air Service Wing Badges - Uniforms and Insignia 1913-1918. Scott A. Duff Publications

 

Rosignoli, Guido.  Air Force Badges and Insignia of World War 2.  1976. Arco Publishing Co. New York. 

 

Bob's Schwartz website:  http://www.ww2wings.com/

 

It's funny but over the years my name and stuff have sometimes shown up on eBay.  One guy harvested my images to use on his auction (I had to send him to the eBay police).  Someone else called me a "well respected expert, who told me these wings were perfect" (I'm NOT and  didn't)  and someone else called me a "pernicious idiotic fat bastard forum blow hard" or some such (actually he was probably pretty correct! LOL).  I have no problems providing my opinions, in fact Im like that drunk guy pulled over by the cops... I have the right to remain silent, but not the ability! (that is a Ron White joke).


We used to have a forum member who was notorious for spending crazy money on an auction and then asking us if they were good or not AFTER he bought them. This behavior (at least in part) got him banned.

 

Many times, if someone asks about something on an auction and NO ONE replies, you may want to assume that many of us are ALSO watching that auction and are muttering to the computer screen... "Ixnay on this Ebay uctionacay, for crying out loud!"

 

 

 

 

 

 

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32 minutes ago, pfrost said:

Many times, if someone asks about something on an auction and NO ONE replies, you may want to assume that many of us are ALSO watching that auction and are muttering to the computer screen... "Ixnay on this Ebay uctionacay, for crying out loud!"

Truth!

🤣😂😄

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2 hours ago, pfrost said:

 

 ....:This is kind of where my reference book collection petered out.  I think if you HAVE to have a reference, the ones in bold are the ones to have.

 

Cambell, J. Duncan.  Aviation Badges and Insignia of the United States 1913-1946.  1977.  The Triangle Press. 

 

Carroll, Warren.  Eagles Recalled.  Air Force Wings of Canada, Great Britain and the British Commonwealth 1913-1945.  1997.  Schiffer Publishing Ltd.  Atglen, PA. 

 

Chalif, Don and Bender, Roger. Military Pilot & Aircrew Badges of the World (1870-Present). Vol 1, Europe (Albania-Hungary).  1982.  R. J. Bender Publishing. 

 

Fitzsimmons, Charles.  Thirty years of U.S. Army Pilot Wings.  1917-1947.  1994. 

 

Huff, Russ.  Wings of World War 2.  and various others, including semi-annual Wings and Things news letter...mostly published. in the mid 1980's. 

 

Maguire, Jon.  Silver Wings, Pinks and Greens.  1996.  Schiffer Publishing Ltd.  Atglen, PA. 

 

Maguire, Jon.  More Silver Wings, Pinks and Greens.  1997.  Schiffer Publishing Ltd.  Atglen, PA.

 

Morris, Terry. United States Army Air Service Wing Badges - Uniforms and Insignia 1913-1918. Scott A. Duff Publications

 

Rosignoli, Guido.  Air Force Badges and Insignia of World War 2.  1976. Arco Publishing Co. New York. 

 

Bob's Schwartz website:  http://www.ww2wings.com/

 

 

If you’re desirous of collecting WWI US Aviation badges, I would also suggest adding a copy of “Flight Badges of the Allied Nations, 1914 - 1918” by CDR. Robert Pandis USNR (Ret.) to your reference library.

 

As with all of the reference books listed above, this last book has a few mistakes and oversights... but it also has a wealth of terrific close-up images of authentic WWI era wings and is excellent for comparison studies.

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The tone and demeanor on a site is dictated from the top down. Like a corporation, if the CEO and executives are positive, fostering people, the rest of the company will be the same. The converse is true as well. 

 

Chris and Patrick are very knowledgeable, but also very patient and kind. The great thing is that you never feel like an idiot (although on many occasions that has been true on my part) presenting anything you find interesting or posing a question. Chris probably has the best US wings collection in the US, but never flaunts it and uses his collection for educational purposes, not bragging rights. 

 

I have never seen a personal "scrap" in the wings section. Even if fakes are presented, the guys in the wing section break it to someone gently and try to make the situation a learning experience. In the only financial transaction I have had on the wings section, Patrick was trying to give away money to me, rather than engaging in price gouging and squabbling over scheckles like I have witnessed in some deals.  Nice folks indeed!

 

Never ran across a jerk in the wings area. 

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There has been turmoil on the forum. Yes, even I, have been put into forum time out for being a chowderhead and dare I say it... A jerk!  There have been a few others who were  banned from participating AND at least one from even being mentioned by name....  JoeVoldemort (AKA HeWhoShallNotBeNamed), I am looking at you!  --I know HWSNBN lurks here because he periodically sends me email billet doux warning me to stop.

 

But the moderators are quick to tamp down on any of our shenanigans and the rank and file folks are great.  Best Damn Forum On the Net.

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1 hour ago, pfrost said:

There has been turmoil on the forum. Yes, even I, have been put into forum time out for being a chowderhead and dare I say it... A jerk!  There have been a few others who were  banned from participating AND at least one from even being mentioned by name....  JoeVoldemort (AKA HeWhoShallNotBeNamed), I am looking at you!  --I know HWSNBN lurks here because he periodically sends me email billet doux warning me to stop.

 

But the moderators are quick to tamp down on any of our shenanigans and the rank and file folks are great.  Best Damn Forum On the Net.

once this year i asked around how do you take varnish or lacquer off of a sterling wing you told me to use a childs eraser, i did and it ruined every thing, but theres no blame here my fault i cleaned it up the best way i could all the finish is gone. looks better anyway, your a okay guy to me when it comes down thought i listen.

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