Jump to content

IS THIS WING GOOD? Post your requests here!


John Cooper
 Share

Recommended Posts

Just to close the loop on the wings I showed from EAA.  I'll see if I can finagle a way to get a photo of the back.  As Marty points out, in the More Silver Wings book there is a picture of two wings that look identical with one being a pin back and the other a clutch.  The pin being attributed to Amico and the other to Josten.  I have to think that if Amico really did make a wing like this that a real one would have come up by now but stranger things have happened with a wing coming out of the woodwork that people haven't seen before.  Could also be a reunion pin but as Patrick pointed out Amico went out of business shortly after the war so that's unlikely.  So the most likely case is a Josten wing converted to a pin back but stored in an Amico box.  Or it's a unicorn.  Only time will tell.

 

And yes, I agree that the cut down Amico with the applied lozenge that started this discussion was not good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i got this 2'' inch pilot wings haven't found any info on it, it's die struck and made of soft medal possibly lead or pewter just wondering why was it made because i have no idea.

1230277050_2inchpewterwing001.JPG.e6c1c67fa66e6ef4fa79542e5c369859.jpg

1052179895_2inchpewterwing005.JPG.b6cf8fb110860ac46a830dfd8fed7af8.jpg

1837053860_2inchpewterwing002.JPG.aed0a8ab0cd5de61645f1dda35f5b4d2.jpg

2069857216_2inchpewterwing004.JPG.0b2bab09b39c2e1bc92cca9bf7330d49.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, 5thwingmarty said:

To keep the door cracked open a bit about the possibility that Amico made full-size WASP wings that look like the Josten pattern, here are pics of a pin from Rob Burkey's site.  He has sold at least three of these, and although far from full-sized it does indicate that Amico did make some WASP items with wings lacking the typical pelican beak shoulder details.

 

Amico Wasp discharge front.jpg

Amico Wasp discharge rear.jpg

Marty, that's an excellent suggestion and connection with AMICO! I believe AMICO was responsible for several WASP related sweetheart pieces as well... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe the mods (Im looking at you Tod) can start a new thread about the WASP wings.

 

Here is the thing (as I scientist, I tend to think about things in this way), there appears to be two mutually exclusive hypotheses.

 

1) That were some cut down AMICO pilot wings that had the Aegis Shield (the shield of Athena (IIRC), not a "lozenge") attached by a  jeweler because of delays in the Josten wings.  Cliff mentions this in one of his posts, and so does Fort Worth Gal ("The only diamond shield pinbacks I have seen that are wartime are the class 43-8 wings, which are a diamond shield on top of a modified USAAF pilot's wing. These were hastily made because the new Jostens wings didn't arrive in time for graduation. But, those have a completely different look though as you can still see the pilot's wing underneath.)  I also reviewed one of the very early WWII USAAF wing collecting books (Russ Huff's Wings of WWII) and he also makes a similar mention of this story.

 

The question I have... is this true or apocryphal (sort of Dealer Lore that may have circulated).  We do know that the earlier graduation wings were made from altered base wings, so it is possible that they went to that well one more time with Josten wings were delayed.  BUT we also have plenty (relatively speaking) examples of biographcial graduation wings... yet I have yet to see any AMICO wings attributed to 43-8. I know, lack of evidence isn't proof of lack of existence, but since we see examples of ALL OTHER graduation wings....    In any case, the idea that some may exist is a possibility. However, I think it can be said without ANY equivocation that the recent eBay auction was selling a clunker, not a REAL 43-8 wing (assuming that those even exist).

 

So ITEM 1 suggests that we MAY have a unicorn Aegis wing made from a cut down AMICO pilot wing....

 

HOLD THE PRESSES>>>> In this photo montage provided by Paul S, there IS a 2 inch AMICO pilot wing shown... NOT WITH THE AEGIS SHIELD, but with the 43-8 class designation!

 

2)The next hypothesis is that the Aegis wings were made by BOTH Josten and AMICO (and maybe a few others) during WWII.  Again, going to the well of knowledge  I will quote Fort Worth Gal on this, but other serious WASP collectors have told me similar stories ("All other pinback diamond shields are reunion wings, which are often mistaken for originals, even by collectors. The reunion wings were intentionally made pinback so they would not be mistaken for originals... but there are no other distinctions from originals. I am not a wing collector and I haven't written any books, but I have done extensive research into the WASP, including working with the WASP Museum in Sweetwater and the TWU WASP Archive.")


Again, going back to Russ Huff's book, he mentions that MULTIPLE companies made the Aegis wings, and includes a poorly Xeroxed image of at least 3 wings. One is a slightly larger pin back wing that doesn't look anything like an AMICO wing, one is a clutchback Josten wing and one is a GEMSCO wing with an attached Aegis.  He doesn't discuss anything about WWII vs Reunion pieces, BUT the pin back wing is in the JOSTEN pattern (and it appears to be slightly larger).  The WASP reunions started in the 60's long after AMICO was out of business.  IF Fort Worth Gal is correct then pin back Josten pattern wings made for the reunion would probably look like the ones shown in MacQuire's book (and in the museum).  The fact that they (as reunion wings) would have come from a WASP... perhaps there was some confusion as to what a 1944 wing and a 1960's wing is being shown.


Also, the thing to remember is that when Russ Huff's book was being written (or for that matter Charlie Fitzsimmon's book) wing collecting was like the Wild West had thrown a convention for con artists and used car salesman with free LSD and beer on tap.  The Great Western was pretty much like entering a Moroccan Souk full of carneys, prostitutes, circus clowns, hucksters and politicians all clamoring to sell you Nazi badges and Japanese swords. Fakes were rife, as was misinformation, misdirection, and outright felony abuse of the truth.  Guys like Chuck Snyder would sell you their mother's undies (right out of Eva Braun's bouduoir--the REAL DEAL), and steal you blind, with a smile and a pat on the back.  Russ Huff's book is kind of like revisiting those old shows and seeing the rare and common next to the fantasy and fakes.

 

I appologize for this long post.  But I suspect that what you are seeing is a couple of truths being conflated. 

1) That class 43-8 had a cut down AMICO wing as it base, but was never made with the WASP Aegis shield.

2) That clutch back Josten wings are the only WWII-vintage WASP Aegis shield wings made.

3) That pin back Josten pattern wings are post WWII reunion pieces that somehow are considered being made by AMICO (which isn't possible because AMICO was already defunct).

4) the idea that pin back Josten wings are made by AMICO may come from the fact that they appear to have been displayed in an AMICO marked box.

 

P

post-3515-1257608596.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5thwingmarty

I don't suppose anyone on the forum has George Connell's 43-W-8 wing, or knows who does have it?  It might prove what kind of wing this class received.  Also, it might be possible to have the WASP museum contact the surviving WASPS and do a poll as to what type of wing they were each issued.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5thwingmarty

To partially answer my own inquiry, here is a photo of a wing attributed to a member of class 43-W-8.  No back photo was included but it was described as having been engraved with her name and class (Jocelyn Moore, 43-W-8) and marked as being a made by Josten.  Of course there is the chance that she was issued another wing and then picked up a Josten wing when they became available.  Without any info from Ms. Moore there is no way to know.

 

Moore WASP wing 43-W-8.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If I am correct in my understanding, women ferry pilots in the US stemmed from two groups (one, the Women's Auxiliary Ferrying Squadron (WAFS) were supervised by Nancy Love and the other. the Women's Flying Training Detachment (WFTD), by Jacquie Cochorane).  Both these organizations were started in 1942. The WAFs formed several squadrons of ferry pilots.  In the mean time, Ms Cochoran had gone to England and observed the RAF using women ferry pilots. She returned to the US and started lobbying her friend, Hap Arnold to use the WFTD for training women ferry pilots.  From early 1943 on, the two groups were distinct entities, until August of 1943, when the two groups were merged into the WASPS. The early classes of the 319th and 318th Women Ferry Training Detachment (who apparently were issued the specific graduation wings) weren't stricktly speaking WASPs.  The WASPs were formed in August of 1943, at which time the Aegis wing would have become the insiginia that they wore. Thus, I suspect that once the Aegis WASP wing was available sometime after 8/1943 ALL WASPS would have been required to wear that (such as they were a paramilitary organization and did not fall under USAAF uniform regulations).  The early 318 and 319th WAF and WFTD classes weren't technically WASPS. There is a sort of "lumping" together of these groups and organizations. For example, the ATC Air Force Ferry Command wings were ferry pilot wings that were used by male ferry pilots AND WAF pilots--some of whom became WASPs. 

 

Wikipedia has a pretty good write up of the history of these two groups of women pilots.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, 5thwingmarty said:

To partially answer my own inquiry, here is a photo of a wing attributed to a member of class 43-W-8.  No back photo was included but it was described as having been engraved with her name and class (Jocelyn Moore, 43-W-8) and marked as being a made by Josten.  Of course there is the chance that she was issued another wing and then picked up a Josten wing when they became available.  Without any info from Ms. Moore there is no way to know.

 

Moore WASP wing 43-W-8.jpg

I have one of these wings i thought for a while these were a novelty item like diamond place there meant to gamble for your life as a pilot. mine is a amico stamped over the meyers shield and is a C.B. i had it for mostly 30 years put away in a box in my closet

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would any authentic unicorn(oxymoron I know) WASP wing from Amico have the simple text HM or would it not likely be the full crest HM? Those sold so far have had the simple, presumed later, AMICO text HM.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

rathbonemuseum.com

Warning. In my opinion this is a cast copy of an original WASP pilot wing. The pictures aren't great but based on the softness of the hallmark and the inconsistent "ridge" outlining the back of the diamond (unequal thickness). 

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/313508351831

 

s-l1600.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bull Moose, I just wanted to add that I trust militarybizniz, I have yet to see a mistake from them. Cant say they are flawless but I follow the account on ebay

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally I can never see getting into a bidding war.

Bidding a large sum, days in advance invites this.

Use a snipe tool like auction stealer, decide what you are willing to pay and let the chips fall at 5 seconds.

An old piece of advice…follow the item, not the bid…

John

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

rathbonemuseum.com

I am going to ask that this conversation about ebay, shill bidders and the BMA wing conclude as this thread is focused on "wings, are they good or not". The wing we agreed is good from what we all see. Let's leave it at that. At least here. Thank you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well said John.  You are absolutely correct.


The thing is, I suspect that this may be one of the pieces from Duncan Campbell's collection.  There were one or two WWI bombardier wings that sold right about 3500$.  It is my understanding that those wings have circulated through various collections and auction sites over the last decade or so (periodically showing up for sale) and have typically sold in the 3200-3500 range... so they really haven't gone up in value (especially when taxes and premiums are taken into account).  In fact, I believe a JJ Sweeney bombardier wing was offered for sale back in one of Russ Huff's Wings and Things semiannual publications for right about 2500-3000 dollars... (and that was back in the 90's).  My point is that this is NOT going to be sleeper and I suspect that it will top out somewhere in the 3500 range. Of course, there are always those whacky auctions when two or more deep pocket buyers really want an item and drive the prices to crazy town.  The "I got to have it" auction when both put in snipe bids of $5K with 2.29 seconds left...

 

This auction isn't a sleeper where no one knows what it is or people are unlikely to see it because it is listed in the collectible toys section listed as a cracker jack toy.  No matter what (shill bidders aside) I suspect the lowest bid it would sell for would be close to $3000.

 

There are also some guys that just like to bid up an auction.  Not really shill bidders, but the figure for at least a day or two, they get to be the one who has their name being the winning bid on an auction.  Some guys also put a good sized bid on the item to keep the dealer from selling it off before the end.  I am sure there were a fair number of "hey, will you take 2500$ to end the auction now" emails being sent.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...