Jump to content

HERE I GO AGAIN REPRO OR NOT


Neuron
 Share

Recommended Posts

I just purchased this knife and wanted to run it by all of the helpful experts here. This was used at Guadalcanal and is supposed to be coming with a family letter and COA. It seems to good to be true especially since I bought it on EBAy, but I couldn't take the chance of missing out on this so know the moment of truth, at least as far as if it is original or not. Unable to see any markings on the blade but it would have to be a Au Lion I think I hope.

 

 

_3_zps4b2b2014.jpg

 

FGFD_zpsa9caa8f7.jpg

GHGFH_zps73265eb3.jpg

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm no expert by any means and I generally try to stay away from negative comments here but I am still learning. To me the oxidation looks a little too perfect? Again this is an is an ignorant observation and I'd appreciate any comments on this as I'd like to learn some more about these knuckle knives

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Greetings Neuron,

 

I agree with Bill, it may be helpful to keep this link in your saved favorites http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/m1918mk1.htm In this case look at the very last knife on Frank’s page and you will see the similarities, between it and the knife you have posted. Here’s a current eBay link to the scabbard http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWI-1918-Trench-Style-Metal-Knife-Sheath-scabbard-/310789236510?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item485c7b671e

 

BEWARE!!! There’s also this repro currently being offered on the bay http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWI-1918-TRENCH-FIGHTING-KNIFE-NO-SHEATH-WORLD-WAR-ONE-/201000010221?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ecc88c1ed The seller has partially covered the knuckles to get around eBay’s rules. While the seller doesn’t claim it to be “original,” they do imply it with the item’s listed name. It's a repro the same as the fourth one down on Frank’s page. I will be a “watcher” on this auction, because I love a train-wreck and cannot turn away.

 

Regards,

 

Lance

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is getting interesting:

 

"Thanks for your interest in this item.
221332086665 - Ided U.S. Marine’s 1918 Trench knife, Battle of Alagator Creek/ Battle of Guadal
We had to remove this listing, and the item is no longer available. We do our best to make sure listings that may not comply with our policies don't appear on eBay. Because millions of items are listed every day, occasionally a noncompliant item could appear on our site."

 

So know I wait to see if it arrives or not. I paid for it but who knows. I recently bought Cole's III Book, but I still wasn't sure so I posted here. I am really curious to see the documentation he has for it. He says he talked to the daughter of the Capt. who fought those battles and a letter from her and a COA, that is what set me in motion, I would think something like this would be pretty valuable. Hell I don't know, maybe its my turn for the burn, but if not...... I can't get anymore information because they took the ad down before I could go back and copy it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Neuron

 

Would be interesting to see the docunentation that they say is with the item. I also would beleive the knive is a reproduction.

 

Tony

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hate to say, back in the 80's when re-enacting US WWII Airborne I bought similar knives for $15.00 ea. Took them apart, removed the chrome plating, ground the excessive flash from the brass grip, stippled the grip with a needle scaler, cur off the sides of the guard, aged the grip and sold them sans scabbard.Never an intent to fake, just a knife for re-enactors. Mine looked way better than this one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Greetings Neuron,

 

I agree with Bill, it may be helpful to keep this link in your saved favorites http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/m1918mk1.htm In this case look at the very last knife on Frank’s page and you will see the similarities, between it and the knife you have posted. Here’s a current eBay link to the scabbard http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWI-1918-Trench-Style-Metal-Knife-Sheath-scabbard-/310789236510?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item485c7b671e

 

BEWARE!!! There’s also this repro currently being offered on the bay http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWI-1918-TRENCH-FIGHTING-KNIFE-NO-SHEATH-WORLD-WAR-ONE-/201000010221?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ecc88c1ed The seller has partially covered the knuckles to get around eBay’s rules. While the seller doesn’t claim it to be “original,” they do imply it with the item’s listed name. It's a repro the same as the fourth one down on Frank’s page. I will be a “watcher” on this auction, because I love a train-wreck and cannot turn away.

 

Regards,

 

Lance

 

The other repro knife I linked sold on eBay for $360.00. A pricey lesson indeed.

 

Regards,

 

Lance

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looks like I did not catch him in time thanks to Ebay. So it looks like I will be getting the knife delivered with the "documentation & COA". I will be letting him know it is a fake and will be sending it back. I really want to see the documentation, supposedly talked to and bought from the Vets daughter, this guy has been on Ebay since 2002 and excellent feedback. I am wondering if he was duped maybe. Oh well stay posted I will let everyone know when it arrives.

Thanks again to all for helping a novice out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree absolutely that it is a repro, but the one I had had a stainless blade, if I recall, which might explain how odd the rusted area near the handle looks. Intentional.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't mean this as a knock - or any disrespect - to Neuron, but why not post the photo and get advice before the purchase? I think that any number of helpful people on the forum would/could have told you that this Mk I is a reproduction.

 

I have been very lucky to have good mentors and friends that offer advice and share resources with me. Some of them are right here on this forum. It may save a lot of headaches and wasted money to simply ask for input first. Also - no lecture intended - doing research before a purchase is always the best bet. We have all been burned and made mistakes, so we all know how you feel. (You're not a "collector" until you've sunk cash into a mistake.) I feel comfortable enough on this forum to ask for input on the tons and tons of items of militaria with which I'm unfamiliar, and I am more than willing to share the knowledge I have accrued to date regarding edged weapons.

 

Just some thoughts. I don't mean any of this as a put-down. Just trying to offer some insight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't mean this as a knock - or any disrespect - to Neuron, but why not post the photo and get advice before the purchase? I think that any number of helpful people on the forum would/could have told you that this Mk I is a reproduction.

 

I have been very lucky to have good mentors and friends that offer advice and share resources with me. Some of them are right here on this forum. It may save a lot of headaches and wasted money to simply ask for input first. Also - no lecture intended - doing research before a purchase is always the best bet. We have all been burned and made mistakes, so we all know how you feel. (You're not a "collector" until you've sunk cash into a mistake.) I feel comfortable enough on this forum to ask for input on the tons and tons of items of militaria with which I'm unfamiliar, and I am more than willing to share the knowledge I have accrued to date regarding edged weapons.

 

Just some thoughts. I don't mean any of this as a put-down. Just trying to offer some insight.

 

Thank you for taking the time to give me some advice.

I agree with everything you said. In my meager defense, and I mean meager, it was a brand new Buy It Now Listing for $269.00 with documentation of war time use on Guadalcanal and the guy had excellent feedback since 2002, if it was true it would be quite a coup for me. I have learned a bunch and I am in the process of acquiring the reference books needed and downloading pertinent pictures and information. It was a gamble tempered with the knowledge that my Paypal account is linked to a credit card and I have some protection with them, I believe. The seller has either turned evil or been the luckiest SOB on earth that no one else has had this problem before, I read all of his feedback, or he was duped by some woman claiming to be the daughter of a Guadalcanal soldier involved in the combat over there. I cannot wait for the documentation to arrive to peruse. Either way this will be a learning experience I am sure not to forget.

Thanks again to all,I will keep posting developments as some wanted to see the docs. also.

-Steve

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Greetings Neuron,

 

After ten minutes of searching on the internet I may reasonably conclude if we assume the document(s) you were provided was/were truthful, that the Granddaughter did not know her Grandfather’s correct/given last name was “Brush” not “Bush.” And it appears she signed the document with “Bush” as her last name…very odd indeed. The knife itself as we have demonstrated earlier in the thread is a reproduction, but I find the documentation, which has been provided possesses all the qualities of a three dollar bill.

 

Below is the story of a Captain Charles H. "Brush" Jr.'s patrol on the same dates as provided by the documents you were provided. It came from here http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USMC/Guadalcanal/USMC-M-Guadalcanal-4.html

 

The Brush Patrol

 

The second patrol, and the one which ultimately was the more important from a combat standpoint, had a curious origin. The area assigned to the 1st Marines for patrolling and reconnaissance lay east and southeast of the perimeter. The plains in the vicinity of the Lunga widen out to the eastward, so that near Tetere, for instance, there is a belt of grassy land nearly eight miles wide. It had been known for some time that it was possible to build an airfield there--at one time there was suspicion that the Japanese were actually engaged in building one--and that there was a plan to proceed with initial surveying of the district preparatory to such construction.

 

On 12 August, a group of engineers set out from the perimeter with the mission of beginning that survey, and accompanying them, for purposes of security, was one platoon of Company A, 1st Marines, under command of Second Lieutenant John J. Jachym. On 13 August, while the group was passing through a small native village, it was greeted by a young Catholic priest, Arthur C. Duhamel of Methuen, Massachusetts. He said that there were rumors of an enemy force farther to the east, along the coast. No definite details could be obtained, and in view of the nature of the information, Lieutenant Jachym decided to return to the perimeter, report the news, and, if necessary, return with a larger body to verify it.

 

Two days later, a partial verification of Duhamel's advice was made by Captain W.F.M. Clemens, a coastwatcher and former official in the British Solomon Islands Civil Government. Accompanied by Sergeant Major Vouza and several other natives, Clemens arrived at the command post on 14 August, and reported that he had received news of an enemy radio station near Taivu. On the same day, Admiral Turner advised Vandegrift that the Japanese were planning an attack in force on the perimeter.

 

At 0700 on 19 August, therefore, the patrol was formed and set out toward Tetere. It consisted this time of a part of Company A, 1st Marines, and was led by Captain Charles H. Brush. Its route lay along the coastal road that leads from the Lunga to the Koli Point-Tetere area. By noon the group had come to a small village, and Captain Brush ordered a halt there for food and for a short respite from the heat. Someone recalled, however, that, a short distance farther along the road, there was said to be a grove of fruit trees, and, with the idea of securing this supplement to the meager canned rations, the company took to the road once more.

 

Midway between the two villages, the scouts preceding the main body caught sight of a group of Japanese traveling westward between the road and the beach. The group consisted of four officers and 30 men, not in military formation. Brush's patrol attacked frontally with part of its strength, with an enveloping movement of one platoon, led by Jachym, around the right flank. Fifty-five minutes of action resulted in the wiping out of the enemy force--31 of them were killed, and three escaped into the jungle. The Marine patrol lost three killed and three wounded.

 

An inspection of the dead revealed a number of interesting details. There was an inordinate amount of rank, for one thing, and there was the additional fact that when it had been surprised by Brush's patrol, the enemy group had been at work laying communication wire--an almost certain indication of the presence or expected early arrival of a much larger force.

A further, and more immediately disturbing detail, was that of the nature of some of the documentary material found with the bodies. Major (then Captain) Brush has the following remarks to make:

 

With a complete lack of knowledge of Japanese on my part, the maps the Japanese had of our positions were so clear as to startle me. They showed our weak spots all too clearly. For example, the First Battalion, First Marines, had been preparing positions on the right of the Second Battalion, but were not occupying these positions. On the right of the First Battalion there was nothing. This fact was clearly shown on the Japanese map which I inspected on the scene of the patrol action.

Subsequent translation of the documents, which were rushed back to the perimeter by runner at once, confirmed the impression made upon Brush--that the enemy group was the advance party of a much larger force.

 

Finally, here's a link to Captain Brush’s Silver Star’s citation for the above action http://projects.militarytimes.com/citations-medals-awards/recipient.php?recipientid=35519

I’d still attempt to get my money back and return the item(s) to the seller. Besides the knife’s obvious reproduction concern, the documentation to back it all up is citing the wrong name for the action quoted. Perhaps Grandfather told a false war story and continued to perpetuate a false narrative to his relatives or perhaps a “dyslexic forger” tried to make a reproduction trench knife into a silk purse? Either case, thank you for sharing the documents as I will make a point to steer clear of having anything to do with the business mentioned on the document’s header.

 

Regards,

 

Lance

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Patchcollector

Wow.This would be humorous if it were'nt about someone trying to rip another person off.It appears that the "documentation" is as fake as the "parchment" it is printed on.

Looks like someone whipped up a juicy story to try and make some money off of a common item.

Good thing Neuron posted it here,found out the truth,and hopefully can get his money refunded.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I only attend one large show each year, the SOS. mostly as a get together/reunion for a bunch of Army buddies. This post reminds me of a fellow who used to set up on the east wall (right) (entrance would be south (the show was scrambled last year and he has moved). who always had some knives of which a few were always direct vet purchases. I was interested in a knuckle knife that he had that was in a Riker display box with similar documents like you post. The fellow was a paratrooper, etc and the knife was in a nice m6 modified scabbard. The modified knife had the flanges cut off, etc., had the right patina, etc. but it did not quite look right but was very good. the M6 scabbard had his name and 82nd or 101st I cannot remember which. So I started reading all the documents to include the testimonials, etc. At that time I suspect the knife probably would have sold in the 450-600 range but because of the airborne connection he was asking 900-1000 However, the dealer screwed up because the included too much info. The soldier had been wounded around Normandy or the Bulge and he had some news paper clippings about the soldier coming home, etc., As I started reading the clippings I noticed that no where did it mention that he was a paratrooper. Even during WWII paratroopers got more credit than regular soldiers so I thought it was odd that it was not mentioned so I decided to dig deeper. After reading about 20 clippings, etc., and piecing the information together I determined that the soldier was not at the locations cited and probably had been wounded in Italy during a time when no airborne outfits were there. It became apparent to me then that something was up. So I took a real good look at the scabbard again and determined that it had been professionally aged and altered. The whole grouping was a hoax. I tried to point it out to the seller but he just shrugged me off. With the advent of smart phones, etc., it is now easier to google info on site so you can at least get a better idea if something is correct or suspicious such as the spelling of the name, unit, etc., Just a word of caution, if you see a buy it now on something that appears suspect be cautious. I suspect it's a technique for some to post something fast and get it sold fast before others can see it to alert people that its fake. In many cases the item ends up in a collection only to be discovered years later that it is fake.

 

In answer to why people don't come to the forum first.. Sometimes weird things line up on ebay, or other selling resources, etc., for example Ebay at times will identify like items that are misnamed, posted in an obscure section that no one will search in at a very low price, etc. Rather than post it here to a group of 1000 or more people who want exactly the same type of item, the finder would rather take a chance, than have to deal with outbidding someone or having someone with deep pockets contact the individual to stop the auction and sell it (seller peeve of mine). just my humble opinion. That's enough drivel for now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I only attend one large show each year, the SOS. mostly as a get together/reunion for a bunch of Army buddies. This post reminds me of a fellow who used to set up on the east wall (right) (entrance would be south (the show was scrambled last year and he has moved). who always had some knives of which a few were always direct vet purchases. I was interested in a knuckle knife that he had that was in a Riker display box with similar documents like you post. The fellow was a paratrooper, etc and the knife was in a nice m6 modified scabbard. The modified knife had the flanges cut off, etc., had the right patina, etc. but it did not quite look right but was very good. the M6 scabbard had his name and 82nd or 101st I cannot remember which. So I started reading all the documents to include the testimonials, etc. At that time I suspect the knife probably would have sold in the 450-600 range but because of the airborne connection he was asking 900-1000 However, the dealer screwed up because the included too much info. The soldier had been wounded around Normandy or the Bulge and he had some news paper clippings about the soldier coming home, etc., As I started reading the clippings I noticed that no where did it mention that he was a paratrooper. Even during WWII paratroopers got more credit than regular soldiers so I thought it was odd that it was not mentioned so I decided to dig deeper. After reading about 20 clippings, etc., and piecing the information together I determined that the soldier was not at the locations cited and probably had been wounded in Italy during a time when no airborne outfits were there. It became apparent to me then that something was up. So I took a real good look at the scabbard again and determined that it had been professionally aged and altered. The whole grouping was a hoax. I tried to point it out to the seller but he just shrugged me off. With the advent of smart phones, etc., it is now easier to google info on site so you can at least get a better idea if something is correct or suspicious such as the spelling of the name, unit, etc., Just a word of caution, if you see a buy it now on something that appears suspect be cautious. I suspect it's a technique for some to post something fast and get it sold fast before others can see it to alert people that its fake. In many cases the item ends up in a collection only to be discovered years later that it is fake.

 

In answer to why people don't come to the forum first.. Sometimes weird things line up on ebay, or other selling resources, etc., for example Ebay at times will identify like items that are misnamed, posted in an obscure section that no one will search in at a very low price, etc. Rather than post it here to a group of 1000 or more people who want exactly the same type of item, the finder would rather take a chance, than have to deal with outbidding someone or having someone with deep pockets contact the individual to stop the auction and sell it (seller peeve of mine). just my humble opinion. That's enough drivel for now.

I think your spot on why folks would decide not to "ask first" on the forum before making a chance-y purchase. That's why it's good to have specific friends you can gain (PM for) opinions and mentorship from in lieu of "alerting the masses" to a bargain or potentially amazing deal. I know if I could not determine the validity of what I was reviewing for purchase, I'd query some of my friends/buds first. That said we all make mistakes, the key is to not habitually repeat them. Realistically/honestly, I feel most collectors would rather chance making a mistake on a bad purchase, than lose some "amazing" item to the guy with the deeper pockets because they alerted him (or her) to an item being offered for sale. Great points in your post and I agree with you on them. Anyone can publically share their successes, but it takes a bigger man to publically share their mistakes, many thanks to Neuron for being the bigger man.

 

Regards,

 

Lance

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No matter how this plays out at least there is a silver lining in all this. I never imagined so many people coming to help me out with their knowledge. I will be more cautious in the future dealing with subjects I am still learning on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I opened a case with Ebay, I referenced this Topic in the message to him from Ebay as suggested here.Should be interesting, I wonder what Ebay would consider proof of a fake??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...