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Restoration of a Glider Waco CG-4A structure.


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I started to share the idea in different pages/forums.
Need to see the reactions/answers.

If there are no other waco in this color scheme, I think that is a great idea and I didn't see the raison to not do.

 

So Gregory, thank you for your proposal.

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Restoration of this glider will be your huge effort. Do something really original and unique in the world but still historically correct. Light grey CG-4A with invasion stripes is ideal for such a project.

 

And yes, there are also other ETO-operated grey CG-4As known. In the ZI they were more popular, but as can be seen ETO knew them as well.

 

 

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I have some reactions, I did translation :

 

1/

I doubt very strongly that this color is gray. Rather a bad green that would have happened. We must not forget that the colors were standardized

 

2/

Are-you sure about the interpretation that this is light gray? For me, it's a light green (vert clair) ...

 

3/

(Between what dates) At what date was it in gray color?

 

And this one is from me :
Is-it only in France/Europe, where the grey is an uncommon color ?
Because other people in this forum did not seem surprised by that color.

 

 

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I like the picture, more information about it?

 

 

 

 

 

This is the back of the picture - this was taken in India

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307th BG, 5th BG, 11th BG, 42nd BG

Also looking for:

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Any Pacific Army Air Force Groups to 5th, 7th, 10th, 14th, 20th AAF

Collecting CBI and ATC Pacific Army Air Force groups

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I have some reactions, I did translation :

 

 

1/

I doubt very strongly that this color is gray. Rather a bad green that would have happened. We must not forget that the colors were standardized

 

2/

Are-you sure about the interpretation that this is light gray? For me, it's a light green (vert clair) ...

 

3/

(Between what dates) At what date was it in gray color?

 

And this one is from me :

Is-it only in France/Europe, where the grey is an uncommon color ?

Because other people in this forum did not seem surprised by that color.

 

 

 

Mat,

 

It is not my fault that these men do not know basic literature and photographs. ;)

 

What does it mean "standardized" colors or painting schemes for the US military gliders? OD, silver or light grey TG-5s in Burma were "standardized" or not? The TG-5s used in Burma with the US national markings and without any national markings were "standardized" or not? The CG-4As used in Burma with the US national markings and without any national markings were "standardized" or not? The US-owned Horsas with RAF roundel on one wing and US star on second one were "standardized" or not? Equally well the nazis could accuse USA or UK for breaking of the Hague Convention. Discussion about "standardized" painting schems then is senseless.

 

It is idealistic theory. In fact, practically, nothing was standardized. If these men do not know light grey CG-4As then let then know at least wartime Air Tech monthlies.

 

What "light green" do these men mean? The USAAF did not use any light green. The RAF only used light green in their four-tone camouflages for biplanes.

 

:)

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Another good close up glider...being named :D

 

I know you are more after the ETO gliders but I couldnt resist!

 

 

Page 1.jpg

Actively collecting:

13th USAAF uniforms and groups/medal groups!

307th BG, 5th BG, 11th BG, 42nd BG

Also looking for:

WWII Far East Air Force uniforms/groups!

Any Pacific Army Air Force Groups to 5th, 7th, 10th, 14th, 20th AAF

Collecting CBI and ATC Pacific Army Air Force groups

donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif

donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifmsg-24355-0-77312200-1449362814.gif

 

USMF's custom photo resize tool:http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/229816-custom-resize-tool-exclusively-for-the-usmf/




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back

 

Page 2.jpg

Actively collecting:

13th USAAF uniforms and groups/medal groups!

307th BG, 5th BG, 11th BG, 42nd BG

Also looking for:

WWII Far East Air Force uniforms/groups!

Any Pacific Army Air Force Groups to 5th, 7th, 10th, 14th, 20th AAF

Collecting CBI and ATC Pacific Army Air Force groups

donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif

donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifmsg-24355-0-77312200-1449362814.gif

 

USMF's custom photo resize tool:http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/229816-custom-resize-tool-exclusively-for-the-usmf/




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There is a question -- do WWII era airborne-interested fans of history need yet another OD CG-4A?

 

My answer to the above question:

Yes if you want historical realism

No if you want to make up your own distorted history.

 

Change the word Standard to Specifications.

 

Contract specifications for the paint scheme for all CG-4A gliders called for Air Corps Specification #24114. This called for a particular paint number of olive drab paint on wings and fuselage with a particular grey paint number ON BOTTOM of the fuselage including part way up nose as you can see in the last old crow image (#73118A.C.) posted. I would call this grey a medium not light. The spcifications also called for a specific color for the serial number on the vertical stabilizer and a minimum height in inches for these digits.

 

What color wer these numbers?

 

Most have probably seen B/W images of both the XCG-4 gliders. What color were they?

 

If there was a glider in Europe painted grey, it did not come from factory in that color. That the rudder is slightly turned on 43-41808 could make a large differnece in light reflection in a black and white photo making it look luch lighter in color than the stabilizer. Replacing the stabilizer alone, by itself was not likely in the field on a glider being reworked to flyable condition. If needed they replaced an entire tail section to ready a glider for recovery. If fabric work was minor they did that but othewise the gliders were reworked by swapping the five basic sections as used in shipping them overseas. The rudder could have been changed over fairly quickly, but not likely the vertical stabilizer. The olive drab paint color faded quite a bit in the sun which would make it appear a different color (in a black and white photo) especially if one area of the glider had faded and another area a fresh new olive drab paint. Black stripes on glider without white stripes are not complete. The white has been scrubbed off or painted over as it was for Market and Varsity.

 

Color of the TG-5 in Burma had nothing to do with the color of CG-4A in production or in Europe. What they did in Burma was at the volition of the commnading officers in order to get the job done against the Japs who did not abide by anyone's convention. Most TG-5 were used only for training in the US and were silver painted. Some CG-4A in the U.S. were over painted in silver but this was over paint, not factory, probably to make the spies think they were aluminum. Who knows why?

 

CG-4A wheels and tyres (tires): The tail wheel you have is CG-4A but is minus its spring and mounting hardware. Most did not have a straight line tread but were just solid flat surface hard rubber wheel. The tires on the main wheels carried various tread designs for a bit of traction. The straight cut tread on your tires were NOT gldier tires but were for other aircraft where forward traction was not wanted but only a side to side traction for turning.

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Charles,

 

It is definitely impossible that Dark Olive Drab 41 (as applied for early CG-4As) or Olive Drab AN 319 (on late CG-4As) faded as much as can be seen in the photographs posted. Show P-51 or P-47, B-17 or B-24, C-46 or C-47, or whatever else which is so light as those CG-4As posted.

 

Light and reflections have nothing to do with the difference between shades on rudder and stabilizer of 43-41808. Both rudder and stabilizer are in one plane.

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I'm not an expert, so don't expect that me, I can determine who has the right version.
I spend my time to search, found and restore glider's parts. No time for do more.
It would be nice if you could understand between you (translation of a french phrase, don't know if she exist in English, American English or Bourbon English, maybe in an old Welsh slang ^^ ), and give me the best way to restore it.

 

gliderman1 for tyres (tires) Who writes like an english ?Not quite my fault if they lost in 1783, 10 years after we cut the Louis for that. But I could never pronounce "tires" with a "y". Grüßen, I do like in thiiirèèèss Reich ? ^^

 

So do you tell me that straight(<- Is it sexual ?) cut tread tires were NOT for glider.. hope the army has in stock another tire with the good tread. Because the last time United States Army was wrong and gave to the airborne museum of Saint-Mère-Eglise, tires with same tread dated July 1957. :P

 

 

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But the other on the right, who was found in Merderet river, is-it enough good ? B)

 

 

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PC167628.JPG

 

PC167630.JPG

 

 

And the 1945 green wheel doesn't have the same diameter for the bearing's axle and the rim had nothing to look like the other. Certainly, it's not for a glider, but it's a 27 inch ballon tire of 1945.

If you have some glider wheel, I can give you a list of people who seek them :
Mainly , The museum of Le Muy in Provence was robbed of theirs after an exposure, and now they need a set.
And, just in France, I know two other projects who need one set. Certainly, the King's Own Royal Border Regiment Museum need another. etc...

You can offer for one of these projects this one : http://www.ebay.com/itm/290805166020

So I conclude the tread isn't the main thing to choose the wheel, found a wheel is more important. :lol:

 

 

 

 

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Discussion about many very light CG-4As as seen in the ETO is similar to fierce, and never-ending, discussions what was background color on Francis Gabreski's P-47 -- USAAF Neutral Gray or RAF Medium Sea Grey? Today nobody will answer this question.

 

The same goes for very light ETO-based CG-4As. Sorry, but I am unable to assimilate an information that a hundred percent of CG-4As used in the US airborne operations, ETO, were OD painted. I can agree that all of them could abandon their manufacturing lines in OD coat but what happened later on is a separate question. The CG-4A was not sophisticated aerial craft and was designed to be a one-way ticket troop carrier only, so maybe second-best OD paints were applied for them, the paints that peeled off very quickly and still airworthy gliders had to be re-painted in the ETO. Maybe yes, maybe no, people in their mass are not interested in gliders and nobody researched it.

 

I do know ex-IX TCC C-47 wreck stored in air in Poland up to late 1950s and that aircraft never faded as much as can be seen in above posted images of light CG-4As. I do know P-39 also stored in air and next through many years under intensive electric light and that airframe has always had strong OD color. I do know a fleet of L-4s bought from USAAF by Poland and those planes were still in strong OD color after nearly 20 years of flying. Therefore no one can convince me that a CG-4A after one year of existing faded so much that it is almost white in b-w photography.

 

Below there is one more ETO example. Two CG-4As in the same position, the same angle of view, the same angle of light. It is simply impossible that both those gliders were painted with OD paint of whatever version -- 41 or 319.

 

 

post-75-0-50779200-1387366376.jpg

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Straight cut tires were not used on CG-4A gliders. Those belong to a different aircraft. All had some sort of tread pattern of which there were at least four different designs. The green painted wheel for a larger diameter axle is not a CG-4A glider wheel. The design you have with a rectanguar brick pattern is most seen in photogrpahs of the tire treads. Your new tail section is great. I am sure you know it is downside up in the photo. The bearing fitting to which the main spar attached, which you have on your cargo frame, at the the ends of the 3 1/4" diameter tube indicates the frame was built by the company that built all of the Ford CG-4A and some of the Northwestern CG-4A frames, and all of the CG-13A by both companies.

 

Gregory do you have an image of one of the XCG-4 gliders at Wright field? It is a shot made of the starboard side at 90 degrees. To me the light grey of the side of the fuselage in that image is as light as are the wings, rudders, fuselages, in your posted images. What color was that glider painted?

 

I beleive you are totally ignoring the light intensity and angle of reflection from the subject which totally does not allow black and white film to indicate the exact and true color of the object..

 

Because many colors other than grey such as light tan, tan, medium brown, pink, yellow, orange, light green, would produce the same shade of grey under the same light and angle conditions as your examples, how can you assume the gldiers were grey and not one of these other colors? Realistically, you can't.

 

I have sent question to several US Troop Carrier pilots, glider and C-47. So far, I have received four replies. One man was GP in 1AC, two were GP in Europe and one was C-47 pilot in Europe who did a lot of the snatch and conventional recoveries of CG-4A gliders after Market and after Varsity.

 

From all of them to this question, "Did you ever see or hear of any CG-4A gliders painted in light grey color rather than olive drab?"

 

The answer from all is, NEVER!

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I have some reactions, I did translation :

 

 

1/

I doubt very strongly that this color is gray. Rather a bad green that would have happened. We must not forget that the colors were standardized

 

2/

Are-you sure about the interpretation that this is light gray? For me, it's a light green (vert clair) ...

 

3/

(Between what dates) At what date was it in gray color?

 

And this one is from me :

Is-it only in France/Europe, where the grey is an uncommon color ?

Because other people in this forum did not seem surprised by that color.

 

 

 

Mat,

 

Here you have one of wartime color photos of light grey CG-4A. More you will find in wartime publications. You will find light grey CG-4A images from various theaters of operation in the archives of majority of US WWII era aviation magazines but not only. Beautiful photographs of the US military gliders were published also by lifestyle, social, social-economical magazines, but also newspapers in their weekend issues with color magazines as an addition to main newspaper. Of non-aviation press nice archives of the US military gliders had, among others, Liberty, New York Herald Tribune, Collier's, Look and many more.

 

Here is light grey Commonwealth CG-4A-CM, s/n 43-42832 manufactured in fiscal year 1943. Majority of the CG-4As used operationally in overseas gliderborne assaults were manufactured in fiscal years 1942 and 1943.

post-75-0-48742400-1387795693.jpg

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Fantastic thread! You folks are undertaking a project that I would love to have been involved in. Good luck with the restoration and keep posting updates!

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United States Army was wrong and gave to the airborne museum of Saint-Mère-Eglise, tires with same tread dated July 1957. :P

 

Here you have correct WWII era patterns of tires for main wheels as used in the CG-4As.

 

 

post-75-0-55058400-1387808056.jpg

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"Did you ever see or hear of any CG-4A gliders painted in light grey color rather than olive drab?"

 

The answer from all is, NEVER!

 

How it was in the Bible? "Seek, and ye shall find."

 

Merry Christmas for all participants of this thread

 

:)

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