More underhanded dealings! Really! Sea Bee's & USN Metal-smith Helmets

[TheGrayGhost]

Good point Bugme, dually noted.

[anton67]

I agree with you Troy but it really is up to the seller since it IS his item to sell.

Not saying that it is the RIGHT thing to do.

 

I will say, however that some sellers list an item and have a reserve.

Then they put in the auction description that they will entertain offers.

If the reserve is not met they will sell it to a person with an acceptable offer.

 

Another thing I have seen is GunBroker.

There the seller will say, "This item is also listed in my store" and they will take it down if it sells there first.

[anton67]

OH and BTW, sometimes sellers get burned doing this.

If an item has little to no bids early in the auction a seller may get impatient and then take a low ball offer.

[USMC-RECON0321]

All good points, and I did state in my opening post I have no way of knowing for sure if this is why they were both ended early. BUT,,, if I was a betting man, this is exactly what happened. Do we find it just a coincidence that this happens on just the really good and unique lids that are listed?? We will see if the one seller actually re-lists the helmet in a few weeks. I'm pretty sure that is not going to happen. I've had this told to me several times on these kinds of deals and it never shows back up. Why? Because it was sold outside of eBay policy and they're sure not going to tell you that in an email through ebay!!

 

Troy

[Bob Hudson]

 

Bob,

Yes I agree and understand that, but if you decide to auction it and the auction starts and bids have been received, reserve met etc.. the item is now technically sold to the high bidder and all others "for sale locations" should be ended with a "Sold" sign posted.

 

 

It is not sold to anyone until the "hammer comes down," which in ebay is the scheduled end of the auction. Ebay itself supports that concept by allowing bidders to cancel their bids and sellers to cancel their auctions. Ebay has never operated with the same rules as live, in-person auctions and yes indeed it would quite a different experience if you drove to a physical auction site, registered, stood around until the lot you wanted came up for bid and then halfway through the bids, they stopped it. But, when going to to the auction involves sitting down at your home computer, doing a keyword search clicking "Bid," a whole different dynamic is at work. If ebay tried to change that dynamic, by perhaps not allowing cancellation of auctions, buyers would have fewer choices and higher reserves or starting bids.

 

of auctions,

[anton67]

Ya it agree that no seller is going to admit selling outside of eBay in an email because they don't want to get thrown off of eBay.

Not saying that is what is happening here.

I have no knowledge either way.

[USMC-RECON0321]

OH and BTW, sometimes sellers get burned doing this.

If an item has little to no bids early in the auction a seller may get impatient and then take a low ball offer.

 

Yes, but remember this is not just about the seller being unethical, so is the buyer who is making the back door deal while knowing bids have been placed and most likely by his fellow collectors he knows, especially on the possible high end helmets!

 

If I'm wrong about why both these nice helmets were ended, then we will see them again by the same sellers, but my guess is they will not surface again on eBay or here for some time! At least until the new owners hope we forget about all this.

 

I do understand auctions can be ended by sellers for valid reasons as Scott mentioned, but Scott, I'm sure when you ended your auctions early (Knowing the kind of guy you are) you contacted all those that bid on your auction and let them know why. I did bid and heard nothing, other than the eBay email telling me my bid was cancelled. I emailed the seller asking what was going on and have not heard back??

 

Troy

[USMC-RECON0321]

 

If ebay tried to change that dynamic, by perhaps not allowing cancellation of auctions, buyers would have fewer choices and higher reserves or starting bids.

 

of auctions,

 

Yes, but at least then you'll know what is really an auction vs what is just a fantasy piece you have no real chance of winning! So maybe that wouldn't be such a bad change.

[anton67]

Not everyone is as ethical as you Troy.

That is just how it is.

And like you said, nice guys finish last.

Sad but true.

[History Man]

Not everyone is as ethical as you Troy.

That is just how it is.

And like you said, nice guys finish last.

Sad but true.

 

You are correct about that, and it is quite sad. We NEED more people in this hobby that show ethics and favor reputation over $$$. I have said this before and I will say this again, I believe that this hobby has succumbed to the almighty dollar with ethics, respect, and history taking a back seat. It doesn't have to be ebay, I have seen the same actions taken at militaria shows. I was at a militaria show and saw an item I wanted, I had left the majority of my money in the car. I asked the seller to put it under the table and gave him a downpayment, when I got back the seller told me that he had sold it to another attendee who had made him an offer above asking price. I was then refunded by downpayment and sent on my way by the seller, was very tempted to say something but instead chalked it up as someone I will NOT deal with again.

 

I will also add this: Honesty, ethics, and respect will get you a lot farther than money ever will. You may be happy selling items for a lot of money while undercutting people, but you will soon find yourself alone and with a bad reputation.

 

Philip

[P-40Warhawk]

 

You are correct about that, and it is quite sad. We NEED more people in this hobby that show ethics and favor reputation over $$$. I have said this before and I will say this again, I believe that this hobby has succumbed to the almighty dollar with ethics, respect, and history taking a back seat. It doesn't have to be ebay, I have seen the same actions taken at militaria shows. I was at a militaria show and saw an item I wanted, I had left the majority of my money in the car. I asked the seller to put it under the table and gave him a downpayment, when I got back the seller told me that he had sold it to another attendee who had made him an offer above asking price. I was then refunded by downpayment and sent on my way by the seller, was very tempted to say something but instead chalked it up as someone I will NOT deal with again.

 

I will also add this: Honesty, ethics, and respect will get you a lot farther than money ever will. You may be happy selling items for a lot of money while undercutting people, but you will soon find yourself alone and with a bad reputation.

 

Philip

 

 

Well said. 100% agree.

[USMC-RECON0321]

I'm not trying to claim I'm without fault or never made bad decisions etc. but I do think there is a code of ethics to follow in this hobby and I enjoy sharing my collection with others that appreciate this kind of stuff. But if I acquired my items from undercutting the very same people I like to share my new finds and this hobby with, what fun is that! You will become very lonely staring at your collection all by yourself!!

[Sparty On]

 

You are correct about that, and it is quite sad. We NEED more people in this hobby that show ethics and favor reputation over $$$. I have said this before and I will say this again, I believe that this hobby has succumbed to the almighty dollar with ethics, respect, and history taking a back seat. It doesn't have to be ebay, I have seen the same actions taken at militaria shows. I was at a militaria show and saw an item I wanted, I had left the majority of my money in the car. I asked the seller to put it under the table and gave him a downpayment, when I got back the seller told me that he had sold it to another attendee who had made him an offer above asking price. I was then refunded by downpayment and sent on my way by the seller, was very tempted to say something but instead chalked it up as someone I will NOT deal with again.

 

I will also add this: Honesty, ethics, and respect will get you a lot farther than money ever will. You may be happy selling items for a lot of money while undercutting people, but you will soon find yourself alone and with a bad reputation.

 

Philip

Well said, Philip!

[P-40Warhawk]

Not everyone is as ethical as you Troy.

That is just how it is.

And like you said, nice guys finish last.

Sad but true.

 

 

So you're saying if we see the line is too long we should run ahead and cut in because we can or because we should?

[TRR]

Troy....very occasionally we, the buyers, can have the last laugh! A few weeks ago I saw a military collectible on eBay which I knew I wanted. There were no bids at that point and 6 days to go. So, I contacted the seller and offered what I considered to be a fair BIN price. He didn't even have the courtesy to respond. So, I continued to monitor the item to the death and placed a bid with just seconds to go. I won....and paid barely half of the amount I'd previously offered and would have been prepared to pay. Needless to say, that gave me a good deal of personal satisfaction! I'm sure the seller wished he'd accepted my initial offer!

 

I make fair offers as well and sometimes sellers take offense to being sent an offer. I usually just "fail" to enter any bid when that happens but watch to see what the item realizes. It always makes me grin when it is not even close to my offer and I get a followup email asking why I didn't bid what I offered. This has worked against me though as I have turned down offers to only get less in the end, but I am never rude about receiving offers.

[Nkomo]

I have been in this hobby for close to 30 years now and have seen just about everything imagineable from dealers, collectors, and other types in between. I've seen underhanded dealings. I've seen some people give away or sell items for next to nothing just to help a collector fill a hole in their collection. I've seen some very unethical business practices from dealers. I have seen some very unethical behavior from buyers as well. I've seen people form life long friendships because of mutual interests in collecting. I could go on with more examples, but I think you understand.

 

I guess my point with this is that militaria collecting is just a microcosm of normal, everyday life. You are going to find some great people who'd give you the shirt off their back to help you out. On the flip side of that coin, you are going to find some real cads who would think nothing about messing you over for whatever reason. People are people.

 

I understand the frustration that everyone is expressing here. Just a couple days ago on Ebay, I saw an item that had one bid on it, the seller ended the item early and then relisted the item for a higher price. Was that unethical? I think so. Would I do business with that person again? I don't know.

 

You are going to see underhanded, unethical things happen on Ebay, at shows, at flea markets, at work, in your own neighborhood, at church and many other places. Like many have said, if you don't like the practices people use, don't bid. If you find an honest dealer, then continue to give them business.

 

As a seller on Ebay, I have been contacted by potential buyers about ending auctions early. They normally send me low ball offers. Not once have I accepted an offer off Ebay because if I'm getting offers that means the item may go for a substantial amount of money. Haven't been wrong so far.

 

Arch

 

p.s. That was an absolutelty horrible thing that dealer did to you, Philip. Wrong on so many levels.

[USMC-RECON0321]

Well said Arch! And I agree 100%, but I think this thread has slanted more towards the seller. The seller is a given, where my primary focus was mostly on the underhanded buyer(s). You are correct, not much we can do about these things happening, but what we can do is just this, expose the persons involved if we know it as fact or as in this case the items it was done on. For example, (hypothetical only here) if this was a back room deal done by a forum member here, I'm sure after seeing all this, the last thing they will want to do is show off their new collection piece (These helmets). In other words, they just had the "Oh Crap" factor and the helmets will have to go into hiding! And maybe others who do this time to time and read all this will realize its not acceptable behavior in this hobby and refrain from doing it anymore in the future. Like I said earlier, these kinds of people will end up in a room full of great items, but no one to show them to and no respect among their fellow collectors.

 

Troy

[Nkomo]

Like I said earlier, these kinds of people will end up in a room full of great items, but no one to show them to and no respect among their fellow collectors.

 

Troy

Troy,

You are 100% correct and what you said above is probably the saddest part of the whole thing.

[Leatherneck72]

There is plenty of stuff out there. Military shows, gun shows, estate sales, flea markets, Ebay, websites…the list goes on and on. if you don't like Ebay then go to shows only where the early bird gets the worm, and your cash does your talking. Frankly, if someone is still the owner of something, they can do as they wish with it. Sour grapes don't make anything except whine….

[USMC-RECON0321]

Leatherneck,
Wow, you missed the entire point! This isn't just about these two helmets, it's about these kinds of dealings happening over and over. So its not about where you find your item or who is selling it etc. It's about, buying, selling, trading, collecting etc... with some ethics, respect for others, honesty and integrity.

 

I do agree if someone is still the owner of something, they can do as they wish with it, Until,,, they offer it up for sale or auction. At that point it is advertised in one way shape or form to find a new owner and the seller should act in a trustworthy, responsible and professional manner, same as the buyer!

 

Troy

[b_hinch]

Not everyone is as ethical as you Troy.

That is just how it is.

And like you said, nice guys finish last.

Sad but true.

Too bad some collectors aren't as ethical as Troy. Nice guys might finish last but can sleep well at night. How are you sleeping, Mark?

[ScottG]

I feel compelled to present another point of view on this topic. It will include the buyer and the seller. I always put a statement in my listings that asks overseas buyers to contact me before bidding,( that way I know they are reading the terms and are willing to abide by my postage requirements, and if its a repeat customer I can offer better postage as there is a trust factor involved. Lastly, I can refuse if they are in a country I don't want to ship to.) Then I state that if one wishes, they can make me an offer and I just might sell it. So, why would I do this? Many will say for the money, or who cares its wrong, etc... The answer is first, as someone stated above, its my item and I can do as I please, simple as that. Second and perhaps some here will agree on this one. When I decide to sell something I usually have a price I would like to get, there is a high end and a low end just like at a show. If I receive an offer in that range I will always consider the sale, the reasons are varied but I will consider it. If there are no bids then I will almost always sell the item for the offer regardless of watchers. If there are bids, then other factors come into play, is the offer coming from a repeat customer, maybe a forum member, maybe a friend who didn't know I was going to sell that item... In that case, sorry bidders I will take the offer because its safe, its in my range of expectations, and its a good customer or friend. So, in this instance I think that perhaps the buyer and the seller can and should be given a pass. When there is an offer from a stranger that is in my range, then I generally say no. When there is an insane offer of $$ that is higher than my expected high range, I also say no because as has been mentioned, its better to run with the auction format and see what happens, sometimes the value of an item just escapes us, or is driven by mitigating factors at a particular time. When I receive an offer from and overseas bidder and there are bids I generally say no because I am just lazy and prefer to not deal with the customs forms and other issues, again, this is if I don't know the person. So some will say this is wrong and against e-Bay policy or against good faith dealing, but I think its fair in some cases. Here is why: E-bay is not my friend and they rarely protect me as a seller. I am not out to "get rich" on a single item, so a fair offer in my range might get the item regardless of its potential value (may be dumb, but again, I am not out to get top dollar all the time). If I can help a friend and fellow collector over a stranger that it bidding I will try, and unfortunately those who entered bids have no way of knowing this. With all of that being said, I do state it in the listing so when a person bids, they should be aware of it and understand that their bid, no matter how high may not get them the item and that they are bidding under those terms. As I said in the opening, it is my item and no buyer or company is going to tell me what to do with it. I have let items come to an end for less than I wanted and I always honor the buyers bid, and on occasion I have made more by letting auctions run. Generally though, I am happy to get a sale in my range and make someone else happy. If that's through the auction process then fine, if its from an offer then fine as well. I would also re-state another fact mentioned above, which is that cut throats usually always send a lowball offer and I just deny them. A fair person will make a fair offer in most cases. Sorry this happened Troy as I am sure you would have paid a more than fair price to add these to your collection, and the seller should have been up front, or at least answered you which I guess is my whole point. Scott.

[anton67]

In response to: In that case, sorry bidders I will take the offer because its safe, its in my range of expectations, and its a good customer or friend.

Plus you do not have to get rocked with the ebay fees.

 

In response to: E-bay is not my friend and they rarely protect me as a seller.

That is for sure. No matter what, the buyer has 45 days to return the item.

The buyer can be completely wrong and it doesn't matter.

Nobody wants their money tied up for 45 days after they paid the enormous fees to ebay.

Then they have to wait 45 days to see whether the buyer is going to change his/her mind.

So there is some credence to the idea of selling to a friend or repeat customer who is not going to do that do you.

That is why people sell items on the forum.

 

In response to: How are you sleeping, Mark?

Fine.

You?

[manayunkman]

If you think this is bad well back when I was your age we got lists in the mail.

 

The day you get the list you call to get your long sought after item only to find out someone got their list 2 days before you and they got it.

 

I had to find some way to up my game.

[anton67]

manayunkman please elaborate.

Were militaria dealers sending out mailers?

That is interesting.