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When is it restoration and when is it a put together?


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I concur with Ian 100%.

The problem is that everyone wants to think their helmet was untouched since it came home after the soldier used it on Utah Beach (or in Ian's case Juno or Sword).

Likely NOT the case even if it appears untouched it still could be from a reserve unit that never went to war.

REALITY check needed

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This is a hobby....not the Spanish Inquisition. Where I come from, hobbies are meant to be fun.

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

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I am not sure you have to disclose about the car but, whatever.

Like you said, it is apples and oranges (comparing a car to a helmet).

And yes I was joking.

And who is selling helmets to 14 yr olds???

I certainly am not.

And History Man you keep saying BUSINESS practice.

You are obviously in the business of selling helmets and therefore held to a higher standard.

I am not. I am merely a lowly collector.

And BTW who is spending thousands of dollars without doing some reaserch??

If you are foolish enough to lay down that kind if cash without research or asking questions then you deserve what you get.

 

I am not in the business of selling helmets, so it is quite the contrary. I am a collector who sells extra pieces and items not in my interest to fund my interest. Just because someone is a collector selling, DOES NOT hold them to lower standards. You do not get off the hook for withholding information because of being a "lowly collector," I think that title is pretty misleading. It doesn't matter if you are a collector selling your extras at a show/ebay/forum or if you own your website, honesty and disclosure is not subject to one group or another. It is a general ethic that many people abide to, as collectors and dealers both have reputations. Reputations will decide which people want to sell to you, buy from you, and trade from you. For example: I once had a very large trade deal going for a group of TR helmets, I backed out after the other party stated that they devised a way to add liners to helmets without anyone being able to notice and that they had done it many times without issue. That shows dishonesty and I will not deal with someone who acts in that manner.

 

Again (since people keep bringing this point up): I completely understand that helmets have been messed with and a majority of them are not wartime sets, but when you sell a helmet....just list what you added to it, I do not see why that is so hard and an issue. Unless it is an issue about profits and how much one stands to lose if that information is made public, that is the only thing I can see. Why is it so controversial to just say what you personally have added or altered to a helmet, it is not that complicated.....and the fact some think it is up to the buyer to tell what a seller has done to an item is quite sad.

 

BTW: When it comes to selling helmets to 14 year olds, many members on this forum are teenagers or young adults. I have seen young people at shows (12, 13, 14) that are buying their first M1 helmet or adding to their collection, there are collectors from all walks of life. Which is why disclosing information about items, let they be helmets or uniforms or medals, is needed.

 

Philip

Actively Seeking:

WW2 USN/USMC Attributed/Named Purple Heart Groups

WW2 USN/USMC Combat Aviation Groups

 

WW2 and Prior USN/USMC Medal Groups

 

Contact me if you have something

 



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Again (since people keep bringing this point up): I completely understand that helmets have been messed with and a majority of them are not honest sets, but when you sell a helmet....just list what you added to it, I do not see why that is so hard and an issue. Unless it is an issue about profits and how much one stands to lose if that information is made public, that is the only thing I can see. Why is it so controversial to just say what you personally have added or altered to a helmet, it is not that complicated.....and the fact some think it is up to the buyer to decide if the seller is honest or not, that is a sad notion.

 

Very well said...

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Once again "buyer beware".

The moral of this story is do your research BEFORE you buy.

 

At this point I will opt not to take the cake.

 

You obviously are more than a collector when you had the possibility of a very large trade deal on TR helmets.

Dealers ARE held to a higher standard.

If I go to a car dealer I expect a higher degree of disclosure.

That is because they are in the business of selling cars.

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Very large does not mean amount of helmets, and no I am not more than a collector. I do not own a site, don't sell on ebay, or have a storefront. I simply sell extras I have on the forum and go to shows every-now-and-then. But I do not need someone to tell me what I am. I am not going to get into a discussion on personal details or let this become about what I sell, that is not what this is about. Interesting that one would steer this discussion in that direction.

 

I backed out of the deal because I do not trust people who feel it is okay to withhold information for the "almighty dollar." It is not okay to put all of the blame and responsibility on the buyer, and withholding information unless specifically asked for it. I disagree with that mentality as it doesn't show good business ethics. Again, I do not see why disclosing what you have done to a helmet is so hard or complicated. Please tell why that is an issue, that is what I would like to know.

 

Philip

Actively Seeking:

WW2 USN/USMC Attributed/Named Purple Heart Groups

WW2 USN/USMC Combat Aviation Groups

 

WW2 and Prior USN/USMC Medal Groups

 

Contact me if you have something

 



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Once again "buyer beware".

The moral of this story is do your research BEFORE you buy.

 

 

 

Fair enough, but does that mean that if someone can trick me it's my fault? Even if I worked hard for several months to research what I was looking at but hadn't had the chance to handle large numbers of originals over many years of collecting?

 

How about someone who sells on ebay and deliberately angles the photos so as to hide the give aways and emphasise the elements that look right? What if they photoshop the pics to make it look better than it is?

 

How about someone who takes a high quality restoration like the Jmurry and presents it on ebay as "original unissued mint".

 

How about a mustang sold as restored, numbers matching, but the numbers don't match?

 

 

 

Certainly the vast majority of ww2 era helmets have been mixed up and put together over the years, but one might argue that coming through that surplus depot in the 50s after being used in training at fort whatever during the war is still legit history. One the other hand, being deliberately messed with by joe schmoe collector/dealer last week, to increase value is probably not legit history.

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How about someone who sells on ebay and deliberately angles the photos so as to hide the give aways and emphasise the elements that look right? What if they photoshop the pics to make it look better than it is?

 

How about someone who takes a high quality restoration like the Jmurry and presents it on ebay as "original unissued mint".

 

 

Really this has to be explained to you as not real / fake or a bad seller?

 

Again if you collect helmets if its a Jmurry helmet, the repo straps stick out like a sore thumb. And is someone is running pics though PSD and deliberately withholding information or not showing something specific does this really need to be explained to you as a fraudulent seller and item?

 

Also I hate to bring it up again but part of it DOES fall on the buyer as well. And that goes for everything not just militaria. Someone once told me never trust anyone who's trying to sell you something. There are tons of people who try to pass of fake D-bales on ebay, if it looks somewhat good and they arent showing the feet on the bales or something else you can use to tell real from fake. Ya know what I do I ask for pics of the bales because thats one of the main ways to tell a fake D-bail (Good ole' education and learning from people smarter than me). If they decide its not important to show me what I need to see, I don't buy it.

 

Some common sense needs to be used here. And if a seller doesn't disclose something or you can tell they are lying about something, no one says you have to deal with them. And on places like ebay or even some dealers I've asked for pics of specifics. The good ones will always send them my way.

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Once again "buyer beware".

The moral of this story is do your research BEFORE you buy.

 

There is a huge difference between not knowing what you are buying, and having someone sell you a helmet/uniform which was misrepresented.

 

One is lack of knowledge, one is fraud.

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

*Sherlock Holmes in "A Scandal in Bohemia"*

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In response to John K who said: Fair enough, but does that mean that if someone can trick me it's my fault?

 

You are assuming someone is intending to trick you. Not necessarily the case.

 

To History Man:

Forgive me for thinking that you were somehow a dealer.

Maybe it was when you said "very large trade deal".

I have not had too many "very large trade deals." I guess it is all relative.

Or maybe it is the fact that you keep referring to good "business ethics"

I take your word for it that you are not a dealer.

It really doesnt matter.

I was merely trying to make the point that a dealer is held to a higher standard.

There is no need to get testy with the grade school reference.

 

The bottom line is that you feel this way:

It is not okay to put all of the blame and responsibility on the buyer, and withholding information unless specifically asked for it. I disagree with that mentality as it doesn't show good business ethics.

I and others on the forum disagree with you on that point.

 

Also you say, "I do not see why disclosing what you have done to a helmet is so hard or complicated.

It is NOT that it is hard or complicated. It is simply unnecessary IMHO.

Caveat: Unless you are advertising it as ORIGINAL/AS FOUND or OUT OF THE BARN condition.

 

Also when you say this: I backed out of the deal because I do not trust people who feel it is okay to withhold information

Good for you. Buyer beware. I would not have dealt with him either. I would have been afraid he was going to rip me off too.

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Really this has to be explained to you as not real / fake or a bad seller?

 

Again if you collect helmets if its a Jmurry helmet, the repo straps stick out like a sore thumb. And is someone is running pics though PSD and deliberately withholding information or not showing something specific does this really need to be explained to you as a fraudulent seller and item?

 

 

 

I'm not asking anyone to explain to me why those examples are shady and enethical, its' extremely obvious and that's why I chose those examples.

 

I was/am questioning at what point is "buyer beware" simply turned around to say "If I can fool you then shame on you it's not my fault I scammed you".

 

 

 

I assume that Anton (mentioned because I qouted him) wouldn't do any of those things, but I bet someone else might and use that same logic to defend / justify their actions.

 

I'm very puzzled why some are so set on the thinking that there is no reason to disclose the changes THEY have made and are thus AWARE of. The only reason I can see is potential value - and if that's it, is this not the definition of decipt? "If I can trick you, shame on you"

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There is a huge difference between not knowing what you are buying, and having someone sell you a helmet/uniform which was misrepresented.

 

One is lack of knowledge, one is fraud.

 

 

Agreed there is a huge difference on the sellers side of things. But from a buyer perspective the only way to learn the difference is to educate yourself, there are crooks everywhere looking to make a buck. Part of the reason I joined this forum is even when I first started collecting I could see a lot of differences in helmets etc, and the only way to know if you are getting duped is to learn. Ask collectors who have good lids, and ask people who aren't trying to sell you the lid.

 

When I first started collecting I bugged the crap out of Scott, Steve, Cesar, Ian and a few others because I knew they knew more than me. Partly not to get burnt and partly to find out differences and educate myself.

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IN response to:

There is a huge difference between not knowing what you are buying, and having someone sell you a helmet/uniform which was misrepresented.

One is lack of knowledge, one is fraud.

I agree 100%.

I do not call it misrepresenting simply because you did not disclose the fact that you paired the helmet with a liner and they were not acquired at the same time.

UNLESS I MISREPRESENTED IT AS "UNTOUCHED/BARN FIND/AS FOUND etc . . .

You guys (History Man and John K) would obviously disagree with me.

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Also you say, "I do not see why disclosing what you have done to a helmet is so hard or complicated.

It is NOT that it is hard or complicated. It is simply unnecessary IMHO.

Caveat: Unless you are advertising it as ORIGINAL/AS FOUND or OUT OF THE BARN condition.

 

 

 

What about when advertising as just "original"?

 

You have been clear about how you define things here, and I appreciate that. But in general the term "original" at least could be taken as meaning "not altered".

 

 

 

*BTW, tone and expression are lacking on the internet. Please take my posts as civil discussion, that's what I am attempting to do and I don't mean to sound overly argumentive or challenging, just inquisitive.

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Gentleman, Ladies,

 

This is getting pretty long, I'm going to allow about a half hour so you can tie up loose ends and then I'm closing this thread.

 

Thanks,

RC

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

*Sherlock Holmes in "A Scandal in Bohemia"*

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John K, there is one thing that I completely agree with you on:

*BTW, tone and expression are lacking on the internet. Please take my posts as civil discussion, that's what I am attempting to do and I don't mean to sound overly argumentive or challenging, just inquisitive.

Other than that I think we must agree to disagree.

 

With the above quote in mind, I hope History Man does not think I am a jerk because I did not mean anything I posted to be disrespectful or negative.

If I cam off that way, I apologize.

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I guess the moral of the story in this thread is learn all you can, educate yourself, and then you wont get burned when you buy a helmet.

 

It's a mistake to rely on others to tell you if something is real or not. If you cant figure it out for yourself, don't invest a lot of money until you can.

 

Nothing beats holding real examples in your hands and not relying on pictures in books or on a computer screen. That requires networking with other collectors and personally looking at their collections. Thats how it was done before the internet.

 

I apply this same philosophy when buying medals.

 

This is one of the very few helmets I have ever owned I felt was never messed with : http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/12034-wwii-fixed-bail-m-1-to-a-naval-aviator/?hl=hawley

 

 

Kurt

!!!! WANTED !!!!

WWII Prisoner of War items : Medals, Mail, Diaries, Photos, Documents, Scrapbooks + More

WWII Naval Aviation Groupings : Medals, Documents, Scrapbooks, Photos, Flight Logs, Flight Jackets + More

 


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It's good to see a healthy and enthusiastic debate on this subject and there are some good points that have been put forward by both sides.

As some of you may know I have quite a substantial collection of ww2 M1's. In building my collection I have been very selective in the helmets I purchase. As a rule I never add any parts to my helmets, maybe the odd net here or there for display purposes, but they are mainly as I obtained them. One or two shells may have been matched with suitable liners but I have always tried to buy complete examples (something that is not so easy now).

I have around 80 helmets I can look at so it's quite obvious to me now to tell when something has been added, not always, but a lot of the time it will stand out. Things like napes and liner chinstraps for example.

Out of that 80 there are probably about 25 that are without doubt all original. All those examles I leave as they are - if a chinstrap is missing it stays missing.

Other helmets that are not ID'd or untouched I'm quite happy to put a net on.

If I ever sell a helmet I always tell the buyer just how it was when I received it - in my case usually just as I bought it.

 

If its in your collection it's yours to do with as you see fit. We can only hope that when selling on we are honest in our description. If its worth the value of its parts then its not a deal breaker if those parts have been matched up along the way.

 

Know what you are collecting ! It pays.

 

Rich

Collector of Fixed bail M1 Helmets

https://m.facebook.com/M1Helmet/

"The dreams of Empire lure the hearts of Kings - and so men die" Burma, 1944

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This has been an interesting discussion, but it's time to put this one to rest.

 

RC

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

*Sherlock Holmes in "A Scandal in Bohemia"*

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