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When is it restoration and when is it a put together?


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Burning Hazard

I remember the days when M1 helmet collecting was just M1 helmet collecting; now it's taken on a form of political correctness, ethics and criminal code....

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IN RESPONSE TO: As for "full disclosure" I just meant being saying so if I/you have altered or mixed up a set. For example, if selling to say "I added the net and chinstrap to this helmet and liner which were aquired together" and not "original helmet, liner, and net, complete with all straps".

 

Why do I need to say anything?

Unless I advertise it as an "ORIGINAL" helmet set up, it is buyer beware.

 

You are talking about helmets that were used by the military. They undoubtedly went through many changes throughout their lifetime. They were likely used by more than one soldier.

Maybe you need to ask yourself, "What is original?"

 

You are taking this hobby way too far IMHO. :D

No offense and I am not trying to be negative.

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I don't think wanting to acquire original untouched sets is "going to far" (not even sure what that means)

 

What I do think is that the vast and I mean *vast* majority of "untouched" sets are anything but. I think it's borderline delusional to think they are, without rock solid, near irrefutable evidence.

 

Wear marks that line up, "been there"/"salty like I like em" condition, tight fitting rigs, or a dealer saying "straight from the vet" doesn't even come close

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Anton;

 

Honestly I'm just looking to feel out how people are representing things when they offer M1s for sale, trying to educate myself if anything. I did post in a thread you started, but I was not trying to single you out or cause a problem.

 

I wasn't saying that you "need to say anything", and from what I have seen you post I don't have any problem with what you do. You seem to be doing things honestly and openly which was what I was hoping others would do as well. (again, starting this thread and openly sharing what you added to that helmet set definately does not seem like something a person would do if they were out to decieve).

 

Sorry if it seems like I'm trying to cause friction, I am not. Just trying to figure out the rules/definitions as they are in regards to M1s these days.

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Ac106 you are twisting my words.

What I mean by taking it too far is insisting that I would need to disclose whether I added a net to my helmet or not (if I were to sell it).

And as you said, all original helmets are few and far between.

So you should expect a put together unless stated otherwise

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Jeez, all this over a net and some scrim...?

 

J

 

Kinda scary actually. To each their own, but in my mind it becomes a commentary on losing the plot on what these helmets represent.

 

It's only my opinion, but if you are buying helmets with what you can sell them for as your first thought, you've missed the point.

 

 

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Jeez, all this over a net and some scrim...?

 

J

 

 

Actually, I believe you are missing the point of the questions. The questions have not been focused on THIS net and scrim but more of a general question. Why does a helmet collector buy a plain helmet then spend hundreds adding to it? To make it look cool? 38Driver is the only one who answered my question.

 

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Actually, I believe you are missing the point of the questions. The questions have not been focused on THIS net and scrim but more of a general question. Why does a helmet collector buy a plain helmet then spend hundreds adding to it? To make it look cool? 38Driver is the only one who answered my question.

 

 

I personally don't. But the reason is simple it comes down to money, if its an untouched item that has proof it goes for big bucks. A net is what 20-30 bucks if you just get a regular buckle another 20 bucks.

 

So say you pick up a fixed bail set for 200 add a net and buckle 250-300 bucks give or take depending on liner etc. For a lid that you can tell has been together since day one with the same set up on a place like ebay I would be it would go for 600 minimum.

 

Also as Driver said people like to represent periods they are interested in and finding an original "untouched" helmet from a specific timeframe is hard to do as its been stated by several people several times.

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Thank you for answering my question. Now I have another one. Let’s say you want to represent a helmet in 1944. So the logic behind 'making it appear as it did, say around June 1944 says it's okay to add a liner, scrim, a net, a chinstrap, but not ok to change the paint too? You're almost at that point. At what point does someone cross the line in modifying a helmet?

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Thank you for answering my question. Now I have another one. Let’s say you want to represent a helmet in 1944. So the logic behind 'making it appear as it did, say around June 1944 says it's okay to add a liner, scrim, a net, a chinstrap, but not ok to change the paint too? You're almost at that point. At what point does someone cross the line in modifying a helmet?

 

 

Again as i said before the big difference between artfake and just adding some scrim is the scrim an net can be taken off no harm no foul. You are in no means modifying the helmet in a way in which it can never be back to its original form.

 

The only way a net can modify a helmet beyond its original state with a net is if you go walking thought he woods for years with it and it starts to get the wear pattern of the net over the paint form exposure and weather.

 

I'm sorry but I find it really hard to believe someone cant grasp the concept of adding paint and adding scrim being 100% different. I mean really you don't understand that a net can just be taken off in a few simple steps and you have the helmet back to the day you got it in hand? Paint not so much.

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You are not "buying helmets for what you can sell them for."

But you should not overpay for them either.

All I am saying is when buying, they are worth the sum of their parts unless they are in as found or original condition which obviously adds value.

 

The reason you buy a plain helmet and add to it is for a number of reasons.

In this case:

1. The helmet is a WWII era fixed bail which is collectable by itself.

2. The HR liner has collector value also by itself.

3. The net and scrim are also collectable.

So why not display them together?

 

What is wrong with buying a FB and later adding a First pattern USMC cover.

Both are collectable by themselves but display nicely together.

 

Otherwise are you saying we should only collect untouched helmets?

 

So what is the almighty POINT????

Should you overpay for the helmets???

 

Collecting to some is about getting all of the different variations of a particular item.

Variations that are rare are worth more to the collector.

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Again as i said before the big difference between artfake and just adding some scrim is the scrim an net can be taken off no harm no foul.

 

 

Fair enough answer. However, are the items taken off before the helmet is sold again? Generally they are not taken off. Correct? I see helmets listed as “original” but then that just means the helmet parts are all WWII era but not original to the helmet? If a helmet is listed as “untouched” then that means it is as it was found? So an original helmet is not really original for parts but paint is original to the helmet?

 

Time after time I see how people have removed layers of paint to show what is underneath. Would you consider that being original or untouched? Which is it? Is removing paint the same as adding?

 

Do you see how this can get confusing? What truly is the difference between “original” and “untouched”?

 

Also, I am just trying to understand the “collecting” logic of helmets. Please do not get mad or take offense at my questions. I see some of you getting your dander up and that is not the point of these questions.

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Another reason to add to a helmet rig is to complete it.

RESTORATION.

Nothing wrong with that IMHO.

 

I have a 1967 Mustang and I had it repaint end to its original color.

Did I destroy it?

No. I restored it.

Get it?

 

Like in your example stripping the paint back to original is restoring it.

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Another reason to add to a helmet rig is to complete it.

RESTORATION.

Nothing wrong with that IMHO.

 

I have a 1967 Mustang and I had it repaint end to its original color.

Did I destroy it?

No. I restored it.

Get it?

 

Like in your example stripping the paint back to original is restoring it.

 

 

Well, there is a big difference between militaria collectors and car enthusiasts to be fair. There are vintage car collectors, and there are rodders, etc. Some may prefer original and never drive it while others may completely rebuild it and drive it.

 

I think the question is just why some things get a pass in the helmet hobby, but very similar things don't.

 

RC

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

*Sherlock Holmes in "A Scandal in Bohemia"*

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Actually, I believe you are missing the point of the questions. The questions have not been focused on THIS net and scrim but more of a general question. Why does a helmet collector buy a plain helmet then spend hundreds adding to it? To make it look cool? 38Driver is the only one who answered my question.

 

I think part of the problem is defining what we mean by helmet collector. It covers a lot of different approaches. A person who buys and sells helmets might take a different approach then someone like myself who has a small collection but isn't out to sell them.

 

Some folks for thier own reasons want absolute authenticity so they spend extra for wartime produced bits to complete a helmet. Personally I can't afford to play that game so a repro sweatband and a postwar liner strap works for me. Again for me it's just been fun to try and use the nameless helmets and nets to represent timeframes.

 

Any and every helmet can be suspect as far as I can tell. In the end each person has to decide for themselves if they accept the story.

 

So I guess the best answer is if a person purposely doctors a helmet in whatever form and then tries to pass it off as original in hopes of making money it's an artefake.

 

That being said it's not a sin for someone to add bits to helmets in thier collection for thier own personal enjoyment.

 

Where this got lost was tying the question to Anton's thread where he was totally clear on his reasons for adding a net and scrim.

 

The topic would have been better served as a separate one from Anton's helmet thread.

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Where this got lost was tying the question to Anton's thread where he was totally clear on his reasons for adding a net and scrim.

 

The topic would have been better served as a separate one from Anton's helmet thread.

 

I don't think it was intended that way, but it happens when a discussion gets going. I was going to split this off, but it is kind of tied to the thread. I can still split it off as a separate thread if that is what everyone would prefer.

 

RC

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

*Sherlock Holmes in "A Scandal in Bohemia"*

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Time after time I see how people have removed layers of paint to show what is underneath. Would you consider that being original or untouched? Which is it? Is removing paint the same as adding?

 

 

 

For me depends on the situation and intent of the paint.

 

 

I have a fixed bail with camo over medics markings. The helmet was crushed as well as the liner so I know its a matched set. I didn't touch it to uncover the medics marks since the it was field done.

 

I recently picked up an M2 D bail that you can tell was just sprayed over with gold and green paint by someone who had no respect for the piece at all. I'm in the process of removing the spray paint and there is a good 90% of the original OD finish.

 

But to me any removal is not untouched. Even though I'm restoring the M2 its not untouched.

 

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Like in your example stripping the paint back to original is restoring it.

 

 

So this means that you restored the helmet which is the same as in your logic adding a net and scrim. So a stripped helmet would be "original" but not "untouched". Shouldn't the seller state that he stripped paint if he decides to sell the helmet? Someone might think the markings were "untouched" when in reality they should be considered "original".

 

Do you see how the difference between original and untouched can get confusing?

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I recently picked up an M2 D bail that you can tell was just sprayed over with gold and green paint by someone who had no respect for the piece at all. I'm in the process of removing the spray paint and there is a good 90% of the original OD finish.

 

But to me any removal is not untouched. Even though I'm restoring the M2 its not untouched.

 

 

 

Thank you for your explanation. I agree with your logic about it not being untouched.

 

....Kat

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Also since you already said you are not a helmet collector its really not hard for someone who IS to tell a net that has been on a helmet since 44 and a helmet someone just put on for display. :)

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It is a RESTORATION back to its original paint.

Nothing wrong with that IMHO.

 

People collect in different ways much like the hot rod guy vs the NOS parts guy (car collecting).

Who are we to tell them how to collect?

 

To some adding a leather chin strap is no big deal.

 

To me adding the USMC cover to a plain Jane FB is no big deal.

That is because each is collectible in its own rite.

That being said I would not sell it as an "untouched" USMC helmet rig.

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