1930's? solid back pilot pattern maker? Unknown

[Costa]

from what i understand is the solid back wings are 1930's pre war. this one is only marked sterling. what do you guys think??

[Costa]

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[Tim B]

I really like this "set" of wings.

 

Wish we would actually discuss the potential manufacturer's here, as I think we could probably ID the maker if we really put our collective heads together. In my opinion, they continued to produce wings through and post-WW2. I also believe these are the guys that produced the Aerial Gunner without the target but, more examples need to be shown to confirm that thought.

 

Here's mine thus far:

[B-17Guy]

These pilot wings are very common.

There are probably 4-5 on ebay at any one time, as well as

half a dozen on the web on various dealer web-sites.

It is an honest example of what is most likely an early WWII badge.

Not sure if we will ever know the maker.

 

John

[tomcatter]

Even if quite common, I really like them: they are my favorite USAAF wings after the Luxenberg.
Note that the back of the shield is not hollow: it's not easy to produce a such detailed raised shield without the hollow back: the maker was surely a good one.

[John Cooper]

I have found these are typically the type you find engraved since the solid back was a perfect canvas. If you search engraved wings in this forum you will see many fine examples.

 

Cheers

[tomcatter]

This maker produced also the USAAF "Alphabet" wings, like these Liaison Pilot wings... it's a shame we don't know (and maybe we will never know) his name.

[Wingcommander]

This maker produced also the USAAF "Alphabet" wings, like these Liaison Pilot wings... it's a shame we don't know (and maybe we will never know) his name.

WOW that's a gorgeous wing!

[tomcatter]

I saw many 1950's Air Force wings by Cohn & Rosenberger with flat-back and a VERY similar pattern.
What are your opinions about? Maybe these are older (and not hallmarked, as usual during WWII) Cohn & Rosenberger wings?

[Tim B]

Post some examples and maybe we can start to look at it.

[tomcatter]

On eBay there are three nice Cohn & Rosenberger wings on sale; they are clutchback but their pattern is very similar to our non-identified wings:

 

item# 161137567297
item# 161137564859
item# 200980832960

[Tim B]

My personal thoughts are to post photos in the actual thread. The bad thing about posting links is, they go dead once the auction is over, or someone removes the photos associated with the links. That makes the thread virtually useless over time to anyone reading it.

 

On the wings in question; I thought you might actually be onto something with this maker earlier today and think Cohn & Rosenberger (Coro, Inc.) might be worth looking into further. The three auction items you listed however, do not compare to the style of wings that started this thread. The wing shoulders are of a different pattern entirely. IMO, the items in the links appear closer to Josten, Meyer, or AE & Co., though not an exact match for those makers either.

 

The wing shoulders on this unknown maker are pretty specific and common to all sets. The farthest left notch (red arrow) is set lower than the rest and in later examples, appears to be right at the edge (perhaps a worn die) but, its still there. The "tell" that I look for, is the two narrow feathers (red circle). Other makers, like Levelle, are close but these two feathers are different.

 

This maker is not the only manufacturer to produce a solid back wing.

 

Tim

[Tim B]

I'll post the aircrew set I have again and you can see the shoulders on these. Pretty consistent throughout the maker's "sets".

[Tim B]

Here's a typical Levelle (navigator) set. Note the wing and the differences between their feathering and the one in question.

 

Levelle sets only have three notches on the left, not four.

[tomcatter]

My personal thoughts are to post photos in the actual thread. The bad thing about posting links is, they go dead once the auction is over, or someone removes the photos associated with the links. That makes the thread virtually useless over time to anyone reading it.

 

On the wings in question; I thought you might actually be onto something with this maker earlier today and think Cohn & Rosenberger (Coro, Inc.) might be worth looking into further. The three auction items you listed however, do not compare to the style of wings that started this thread. The wing shoulders are of a different pattern entirely. IMO, the items in the links appear closer to Josten, Meyer, or AE & Co., though not an exact match for those makers either.

 

The wing shoulders on this unknown maker are pretty specific and common to all sets. The farthest left notch (red arrow) is set lower than the rest and in later examples, appears to be right at the edge (perhaps a worn die) but, its still there. The "tell" that I look for, is the two narrow feathers (red circle). Other makers, like Levelle, are close but these two feathers are different.

 

This maker is not the only manufacturer to produce a solid back wing.

 

Tim

 

I'm fully agree with you Tim, wings shoulders have a different pattern.

But... could the unidentified wings be an earlier version from C&R?

 

I post a photo from one of the listings, just for future reference (photo credits to eBay seller).

[Tim B]

 

I'm fully agree with you Tim, wings shoulders have a different pattern.

But... could the unidentified wings be an earlier version from C&R?

 

Yes, I do believe that is a possibility but, will hold off from posting more until we see some more input by others. Lot's of readers, only a couple participating, as usual. Where are all the wing collectors...?

[pfrost]

 

Where are all the wing collectors...?

 

 

"B-17-John" put his finger on the core issue. Nice wings, relatively common, nothing special to write home about (even if it is a nice vintage wing).

"LGB-John" is also correct that you frequently see this wing used a base for some sort of engraving--which would have likely made the thread more interesting if it was named to some particular pilot.

 

I think that pretty much covers all the bases with this pattern wing (for me at least).

 

As to who made it... no way of every knowing for sure. More than likely it was a big manufacturing company that was churning these things out for wholesale to a varitey of retail companies, mail order firms, and uniform supply stores. They may have also been working under one of the big government contracts awarded early in the war to supply insignia to the new pilots when things in hte USAAF started to get going.

 

It is even possible that multiple firms were making these wings (I doubt seriously that these were made only off of one die).

 

Patrick

[Tim B]

Just getting back in; long day here.

 

Patrick,

 

The thing is, not a lot of us can afford to go out and buy up 10-15 of the same wing to make comparisons and I somewhat doubt that many can afford a nice set of period engraved wings, whenever they do show up. So, I guess some collectors like me have to settle for the more mundane sets to add to the collection and try to discuss with other collectors here.

 

I disagree that we automatically think answers cannot be found to old questions and I think many unanswered questions go unanswered because nobody wants to take the time to actually discuss them anymore. As far as this particular pattern of wings, I disagree that they are not a product of one company. As I stated before, this (currently unknown) company was not the only manufacturer that produced solid wings but, these wings share common die designs and IMHO...originate from ONE manufacturer.

 

Just reread this and the tone sounds a bit harse, wasn't meant that way. Anyway, it's late, I'm tired and wet. I'll continue tomorrow as time permits and I can regain my train of thought on these. I think Tomcatter might have stumbled on something here though and I do think its worth at least a cursory discussion, even though it might not be as worthy a topic for some.

 

Tim

[pfrost]

No worries Tim.

 

Still, you asked where all the wing collectors were... and I told you.

 

BTW, I think you would be surprised by what type of collection you can acquire with a very modest budget. I don't really think its the price of the wing in the discussion, its more the topic that will get the juices flowing.

 

P

[tomcatter]

Dear Patrick,
some discussions are coming up over and over because there are some "big questions" about wings & badges, and actually no one has provided a definitive answer. The matter is not the value of the wings we are arguing about, but a simple curiosity about their maker.
Of course, some great questions about human life cannot be answered because nobody has the answer... in this case people will ask the same things over and over... just my philosophical two cents.

All the best
TC

[John Cooper]

This topic has been rolled back to the point prior to folks getting out of control. Please keep it that way folks as I will appreciate it.

 

Thanks

 

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