Teamski Posted October 25, 2013 Share #26 Posted October 25, 2013 I don’t agree with your statement about people being replaceable because I cannot replace anyone in my family. You cannot put a value on life. But I would like to talk about the historical aspect. If you try to save one part of history then you destroy another part. If an old plane never flies again, then you cannot experience the sound of hearing a prop plane. The sound is one you never forget. You also lose the experience of seeing an old plane in the sky. Every time a plane goes overhead, I look up. You are replacing one thrill with another. Do you worry so much about one part of history that you forget about another part? So, would you rather have seen the USS Constitution sail 50 years ago and watch it sink, or would you rather see it preserved for all to see today? I do understand your viewpoint about seeing the planes in action. Trust me, seeing BF-109G "Black 6" doing rolls and loops over RAF Mildenhall with the distinctive sound of the Daimler Benz engine whining was great to see. But would I trade that short, fleeting experience to ensure the plane wasn't later flipped over on landing and reconstructed using a 109E rear fuselage? Hell yeah! -Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted October 25, 2013 Share #27 Posted October 25, 2013 I agree with Kat. You know, there is nothing (in my humble opinion) on this planet that is worth more than a human life. Teamski, I am going to have to disagree with you. And I understand I am in the minority without a doubt. -Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyCanteen Posted October 25, 2013 Share #28 Posted October 25, 2013 So, would you rather have seen the USS Constitution sail 50 years ago and watch it sink, or would you rather see it preserved for all to see today? I do understand your viewpoint about seeing the planes in action. Trust me, seeing BF-109G "Black 6" doing rolls and loops over RAF Mildenhall with the distinctive sound of the Daimler Benz engine whining was great to see. But would I trade that short, fleeting experience to ensure the plane wasn't later flipped over on landing and reconstructed using a 109E rear fuselage? Hell yeah! -Ski One thing that I think is worth pointing out, is that once the history is removed from the public eye they cease to care about it. When they cease to care about it, it doesn't matter if it's in a museum or not; because the museum might end up closing down or removing the item due to non interest. A B-17 on static display doesn't interest me too much, but one that is airborne? That is a magnificent tribute to the men and women that not only built them, but flew them as well. That said, they can and have built replicas of many things when the originals were long gone. As yet, many flying examples of WWII aircraft are from from unique. People however are unique, and you can't replace a loved one or friend, and you never will be able to. That's all I'm going to say on this subject. RC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hink441 Posted October 25, 2013 Share #29 Posted October 25, 2013 I believe there comes a time when every airframe should be grounded. Most airframes have a definite engineered lifespan, once exceeded they are restricted and eventually retired. These aircraft are very old and flying them comes with huge risks. We really should not be surprised when these accidents happen because it really is just a matter of time before we auger them all in the ground and make smoking holes out of historical treasures. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waltz41 Posted October 26, 2013 Share #30 Posted October 26, 2013 Accidents will happen. It is a shame, but a fact of life. These aircraft are probably inspected more and looked over more carefully than your normal Cessna. But things can and might happen. Shame, but a fact of life. There are 292 P-51 survivors, of which 170 are flying and 58 are on display/non-flying. So I don't really consider them 'rare' enough to all be grounded, but that's just my opinion. Now if you are talking about Fifi, the only flying B-29, then yeah, maybe I could agree somewhat with limiting flights and such......but also, I've seen Bockscar at the USAF Museum and I've seen Fifi fly.....and there is no comparison. Is it worth the lives? Of course not, but like I said before, in all reality (as long as the pilot is skilled and should be flying that particular warbird) I don't see any difference taking up one of these planes vs the Piper Cub from the local airport. You do see accidents happen with those aircraft. Do a google search, I bet in the world there is probably almost a crash a day. It would also be like saying anyone with a WWII Jeep or vehicle shouldn't drive them around. I really doubt you could convince owners not to drive them......that is more than half the fun of owning them.....but hey, they could easily get into a car accident, right? Let's just remember this, we all have our opinions, and nobody is right. And we probably all won't change each other's opinions either. But that's what forums are for right, just blast away at how we feel and why we think we are right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwb123 Posted October 26, 2013 Share #31 Posted October 26, 2013 A live, functioning aircraft is just different from a static museum display. The odor, the grease, grime, weathering.... all of it. I was lucky to accidently be at the Confederate Air Force Museum years ago on one of their famous Airshow weekends. I knew something was up when I couldn't get a room a the first two hotels I stopped at. Early in the morning you could photograph the flightline, From about 10am onwards, it was nonstop flying. But, as has been said above, anytime a plane takes to the air there is a risk, even with the most well maintained aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted October 26, 2013 Share #32 Posted October 26, 2013 So where do B-52s figure in all of this? Still a front-line USAF aircraft 50+ years old...and expected to fly on for a while longer yet! Yes....I know they've been subjected to numerous upgrades, but the basic airframes date from the 50s and early 60s, so not much younger than the WW2 types which themselves have been re-built / restored. We've all seen pics of vintage wrecked warbirds recovered from the jungle or a Russian swamp, then maybe 4-5 later they take to the air in factory-fresh condition. I've watched these warbird restorers at work...it's high-tech craftsmanship at its finest. The end result is usually a plane of higher build quality than one which rolled off the production lines in 1944, so arguably very airworthy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted October 26, 2013 Share #33 Posted October 26, 2013 An example of contemporary restoration work inside The Fighter Collection's hangar at Duxford. This is a Sea Fury undergoing a major re-build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted October 26, 2013 Share #34 Posted October 26, 2013 Ditto...a FIAT Falco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted October 26, 2013 Share #35 Posted October 26, 2013 Gloster Gladiator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted October 26, 2013 Share #36 Posted October 26, 2013 Sea Fury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted October 26, 2013 Share #37 Posted October 26, 2013 Bristol Beaufighter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted October 26, 2013 Share #38 Posted October 26, 2013 Bristol Blenheim Mk1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted October 26, 2013 Share #39 Posted October 26, 2013 The majority of these types undergoing restoration to flying status will have many new parts fabricated from scratch, using original drawings...everything from wing-spars to their fuselage skins. Old corroded or damaged parts are routinely replaced but also provide the patterns for the new parts. Attention to detail is awesome! So, when these planes eventually take to the air they are partially new-builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted October 26, 2013 Share #40 Posted October 26, 2013 The majority of these types undergoing restoration to flying status will have many new parts fabricated from scratch, using original drawings...everything from wing-spars to their fuselage skins. Old corroded or damaged parts are routinely replaced but also provide the patterns for the new parts. Attention to detail is awesome! So, when these planes eventually take to the air they are partially new-builds. You are making me homesick, quit it!! I am not a big fan of them putting a Mk I Blenheim nose on a Mk II fuselage personally. They decided to do this after the gears up landing which damaged the nose. -Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wharfmaster Posted October 26, 2013 Share #41 Posted October 26, 2013 I know this is completely callous, but people are replaceable, pieces of history are not. We humans all have a limited time on this Earth and when you are gone, you are gone. Unless you are Ramsese II and are in a museum, this is our fate regardless. We are not immortal and many more of us are on the way. However, when a true piece of history is destroyed, it is removed from the historical record; one that can benefit future generations through its very existence. I think we have to keep that in mind when dealing with aircraft. And, I know the same goes for Goodwood and the occasional historic race car destroyed there from year to year. Once a McLaren is destroyed, there is no replacing it. -Ski I agree. There is twice too many humans on this planet now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Baker Posted October 26, 2013 Author Share #42 Posted October 26, 2013 I know this is completely callous, but people are replaceable, pieces of history are not. We humans all have a limited time on this Earth and when you are gone, you are gone. Unless you are Ramsese II and are in a museum, this is our fate regardless. We are not immortal and many more of us are on the way. However, when a true piece of history is destroyed, it is removed from the historical record; one that can benefit future generations through its very existence. I think we have to keep that in mind when dealing with aircraft. And, I know the same goes for Goodwood and the occasional historic race car destroyed there from year to year. Once a McLaren is destroyed, there is no replacing it. -Ski Ski, Without people, history doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted October 27, 2013 Share #43 Posted October 27, 2013 Ski, Without people, history doesn't matter. It comes down to this: If these pilots weren't flying the planes they crashed, they would be alive today. -Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Baker Posted October 27, 2013 Author Share #44 Posted October 27, 2013 It comes down to this: If these pilots weren't flying the planes they crashed, they would be alive today. -Ski Agreed. I was only addressing the people are replaceable comment. People make history, and cars, and planes...... When they are gone, they too are gone. Because they are unique, they are no more replaceable than a Mustang or a McLaren. Just a thought, not an argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinO Posted October 31, 2013 Share #45 Posted October 31, 2013 I've collected AAF for years, with a passion for the human experience. Having a B-17 buzz over (to the nearby airport) my collection - blows me out of the water every time. I can imagine what these guys went through all day/night, but hearing and seeing their machine(s) trumps that. Imagine your common gawker, seeing a prop plane fly over. What do they think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadet Posted October 31, 2013 Share #46 Posted October 31, 2013 Wow...strange world view. No object is worth more than a human life, period. If you were the wife, son or daughter of one of the deceased I imagine you would trade ANY historical artifact to have your loved one back. Without getting too philosophical, any time a human life ends too soon, the world is cheated out of infinite possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SergeantMajorGray Posted October 31, 2013 Share #47 Posted October 31, 2013 The people that fly these planes know it's dangerous and they know their next flight could be their last. But they continue to fly because that's what they love to do why make them stop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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