WW1 Victory Medal - Info about Navy Clasps

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Hello,

 

I've seen there are reproductions of his medal, but want to be sure this one is an original.

 

Thanks,

Tony

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rev

[collectsmedals]

The medal appears original but I do not like the clasp.

 

The rope segments should all be the same size except for the partial segments in the corners.

 

Also, the segments seem too rounded and not defined and crisp enough.

 

I do not have an Aviation clasp in my collection but I do have 14 other naval clasps and this one does not feel right.

[swabbie]

This will be my first posting so if this gets messed up please bear with me. I have a particular passion for Navy Clasps. I have all of them, some of the same clasp type from different manufactures. Most of these I collected over 25 years ago when it was a lot easier detecting the fakes. I think the following will be helpful to this topic. This is extracted from Al Gleim’s New Medal Letter #9 (15 May 1983) so all the credit goes to him and those who contributed input to the project. The following tables should be of assistance when examining WWI Navy Clasps. In the first table, the columns Left, Top, Right and Bottom refer to rope loops as viewed (Left is the viewer’s left). At that time, there were three known fake clasp types. Heaven knows how many there may be now.

 

Type Mfgr Left Top Right Bottom

I Art Metal 5 29 4 29

II Fulford 4 28 5 29

IIa Fulford 5 29 4 28

III Mint 3 ½ 26 ½ 3 ½ 26 ½

IV BBB 4 29 ½ 4 29

FI Unk 4 ½ 26 ½ 4 ½ 27 ½

FII Unk 3 ½ 24 ½ 3 ½ 25 ½

FIII Unk 3 ½ 25 ½ 3 ½ 24 ½

 

Since the Board does not take tables (or at least I don't know how to do them), this portion will be difficult to read. The following are the observed varieties for the various clasp types. I have left out FI-FIII.

Clasp

Transport I III

Escort I

Armed Guard I II

Grand Fleet I IIa

Patrol I II

Submarine I II

Destroyer I IV

Aviation I II

Naval Bty I

White Sea I

Asiatic I

Mine Laying I IIa

Mine Swpng I II

Salvage I

Atlantic Fleet I II

Overseas I

Mobile Base I IIa

Sub Chaser I II *

West Indies III

 

*single word inscription

 

I would like to post some photographs of several clasps that would help these statistics but I can’t seem get the resolution down to less than 150KB with my camera and photo processor at the moment. It is worth noting that the Fulford clasp backstrap is very narrow and is silver in color. Also, the BB&Bs I have seen have been very dark (black) and have a 3/32 wide backstrap. Those I have are hallmarked; however, Col. Gleim noted that some have been observed without the BB&B hallmark. I have a vague recollection that someone later reported seeing another non-Destroyer BB&B clasp. I need to add that Al mentioned that he would have liked to have received more information so he could update the tables. Perhaps those of you interested in this topic might like to add to it. BTW, I believe Tony’s Art Metal Aviation clasp is good.

[Brig]

maybe the original medal was flipped around by accident when someone added the suspect aviation tab

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

maybe the original medal was flipped around by accident when someone added the suspect aviation tab

 

 

Exactly my thoughts but you beat me to it. I can think of absolutely no reason whatsoever to remove the medal...other than to change, add, or take away something.

[Brig]

Exactly my thoughts but you beat me to it. I can think of absolutely no reason whatsoever to remove the medal...other than to change, add, or take away something.

I know with named medals, many collectors turn them around to display the name while still able to pin the medal to the display background

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All-

 

I wanted to thank everyone for your inputs so far. Would it help if I posted better close-ups of the rope?

Can't say that the flipping of the medal is helping matters much. I guess there will always

be that "doubt" from that perspective. I was about ready to return this medal, but now I'm not so sure.

 

Thanks,

Tony

[swabbie]

Thanks to Chris, our administrator, I can now post some photos of WWI Navy clasps to help illustrate my earlier posting. When I was actively collecting these clasps, we had to deal with fakes just we do now. The easiest way to detect them was by (1) observing known good examples and (2) becoming familiar with certain characteristics of the different manufactures. Back then, counting rope loops was a good overall way to eliminate the good from the bad. I will start with a known good Art Metal clasp, then display other Art Metal strikes so you can start observing characteristics. I will also post a Fulford clasp. As far as I know, no one has attempted a reproduction of the Fulford design. Here is the known good Mine Sweeper Art Medal clasp and medal (note the engraving on the pendent). The second is a closeup of the clasp. This example came from the family.

[swabbie]

Here is another Art Metal Mine Sweeper clasp; however, the strike was offset. You can run into variations from the same manufacturer, but not on loop count. Also depicted is a Naval Battery Art Metal clasp. Count the loops in both clasps and the "USS Cahill" Mine Sweeper clasp. According to the first table in my first posting, we count left 5, right 4, top 29, bottom 29.

[swabbie]

Here is an Art Metal White Sea clasp. Begin to see some of the Art Metal strike characteristics? For example, note the upper left of the rope border. There are others. You can pick them out.

[swabbie]

Here is an Art Metal Submarine clasp. I will also illustrate the backstrap. The way the backstrap is soldered, its placement on the clasp and its width are also ways to sort the good from the bad.

[swabbie]

Here is a Fulford Aviation Clasp. Again, count the rope loops. Also, note the backstrap. As mentioned before, I know of no copies of this particular manufacturer.

I hope all of these illustrations have been helpful. Good hunting!

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

I know with named medals, many collectors turn them around to display the name while still able to pin the medal to the display background

 

Very true. I have seen this with Purple Heart Medals way too often. The trouble is that since they have a rectangular/square suspension loop, it sometime deforms the shape and is nearly impossible to get back to the true shape.

[ccandgc]

great info! Thanks for sharing! A question regarding the Asiatic Fleet clasp....whats the difference between the I and II?

 

Thanks!

Chad

[ccandgc]

ah, I got it. I re-read after my post, and figured it out Im looking for an Atlantic Fleet clasp, original, for my great grandfathers WW1 Victory medal. If anyone has one for sale, or a lead to one, I want it!

 

Thanks!

Chad