denfly Posted October 13, 2013 Share #1 Posted October 13, 2013 I have a number of M1917 helmets and most have the manufacturers mark starting with "Z". I also noticed one I have with an "X" stamped on it. It is US because the rivets are not split and it has the tag inside about tightening the cord etc. Is this rare and or a limited production run? I have 2 with the letters, "U" and 2 with "Y" although that one is kinda common. It makes sense if production runs were as follows; "U", "X", "Y" and "Z". "V" was ommited because England had a company called Vickers and "W" would be confused with the letter "M" if positioned wrong. (just guessing on that one) So any input would be appreciated. The base of the bail is rounded on the "X" helmet as you can see in the pictures compared with the squared type on others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SergeantMajorGray Posted October 13, 2013 Share #2 Posted October 13, 2013 I believe the member aef1917 can help you with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aef1917 Posted October 14, 2013 Share #3 Posted October 14, 2013 All of the evidence I've found points to the markings being copied from the British format. The first letter is the steel supplier, the second letter is the company that pressed the helmet and the number is the lot. There are some that don't fit that pattern, including the ones starting with X. I suspect these outliers are from the the first experimental lots made in the summer of 1917, since when the liners have dates, they are almost invariably 1917. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aef1917 Posted October 15, 2013 Share #4 Posted October 15, 2013 I forgot to mention before that there were helmets marked with a W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denfly Posted October 15, 2013 Author Share #5 Posted October 15, 2013 Yes on the "W" for a British Co. known as William Dobson Mfg. Haven't seen one though. Thanks for the info on the M1917's. Too bad it's missing the liner so so I can't put a date on the "X" helmet. I noticed too that "Y" stamped helmets always follows with a "J". I have yet to see one followed by another letter. Again, many thanks for the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aef1917 Posted October 15, 2013 Share #6 Posted October 15, 2013 I meant US m1917s with a W. Y always goes with J, but there are ZJ helmets too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denfly Posted October 16, 2013 Author Share #7 Posted October 16, 2013 U.S. with a "W"? Wow that has to be rare indeed. I have ZA, ZD and ZC. I have seen ZJ, ZB etc.most have 2 digit numbers and Iv'e noticed 3 digit numbers that I assume were made later perhaps post WW1. The M1917A1's have 2 digits and a letter for example "19D", that's how I can tell an original M1917A1 from a re-lined M1917 made into a M1917A1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denfly Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share #8 Posted October 22, 2014 Not to sound like a pain, but how does one determine the second letter suffix to the manufacturer? For example a helmet with ZC was made by what company? ZD, etc. I know there were 7 companies. How were they listed alphabetically? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aef1917 Posted October 22, 2014 Share #9 Posted October 22, 2014 As far as I can make out, the most likely scenario is that the letters were assigned in the order the companies were awarded contracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denfly Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share #10 Posted October 22, 2014 I guess nobody knows that listing. If anyone knows, i'm interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aef1917 Posted October 23, 2014 Share #11 Posted October 23, 2014 I can state with 100% certainty that J is Columbian Enameling and Stamping Co. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denfly Posted November 19, 2014 Author Share #12 Posted November 19, 2014 I found a helmet with a #2 for the letter "Z". How common was that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aef1917 Posted November 19, 2014 Share #13 Posted November 19, 2014 That's a Z. The company represented by A was the only one to use a font with such pronounced serifs to mark helmets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denfly Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share #14 Posted November 21, 2014 Interesting to know. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hink441 Posted January 14, 2020 Share #15 Posted January 14, 2020 As far as I can make out, the most likely scenario is that the letters were assigned in the order the companies were awarded contracts. Would a M1917 helmet with "ZA0" be an early production run? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aef1917 Posted January 14, 2020 Share #16 Posted January 14, 2020 The ZA0 helmets are interesting. Company A was involved in some early experimental work and initially devised their own letter codes to identify the different heats of steel. Once m1917 helmet production began to ramp up, they asked to maintain their own marking scheme, but the Ordnance Department told them that they'd have to adopt the same marking system as the rest of the companies. The highest letter I've seen using the company's system is O, and the O looks the same as the one in ZA0. My hypothesis is that these were the last of the experimental lots, and the company switched over to the Ordnance Department marking system partway through the manufacturing process. I haven't found a document that confirms this, but one piece of evidence in favor of the hypothesis is that the Ordnance Department list of lot numbers starts with 1, not 0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hink441 Posted January 14, 2020 Share #17 Posted January 14, 2020 The ZA0 helmets are interesting. Company A was involved in some early experimental work and initially devised their own letter codes to identify the different heats of steel. Once m1917 helmet production began to ramp up, they asked to maintain their own marking scheme, but the Ordnance Department told them that they'd have to adopt the same marking system as the rest of the companies. The highest letter I've seen using the company's system is O, and the O looks the same as the one in ZA0. My hypothesis is that these were the last of the experimental lots, and the company switched over to the Ordnance Department marking system partway through the manufacturing process. I haven't found a document that confirms this, but one piece of evidence in favor of the hypothesis is that the Ordnance Department list of lot numbers starts with 1, not 0. Fascinating theory, very reasonable and plausible. I really wish some more documentary evidence could be found and I very much appreciate your work in this under appreciated area of helmet collecting. I recently purchased a "ZA0" helmet on eBay and am waiting for it's arrival. I would think that it would be a very early example on the US M1917. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hink441 Posted January 15, 2020 Share #18 Posted January 15, 2020 Helmet arrived today. Here is the ZA0 mark. Helmet was unit marked inside. Co E 303 Ammunition Train. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hink441 Posted January 15, 2020 Share #19 Posted January 15, 2020 Unit mark. The Soldier's name is ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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