general question about cut edge patch manufacturing

[jw1969]

Excellent illustration. Now, not to be picking the fly poop out of the pepper, but the correct term (according to the factories) for the material is "goods". Further, it can't be a "backing" because it's in the "middle" of the front bobbin thread and the back bobbin thread.

 

PatchJohnson

 

'Backing', or cotton twill base material / cotton twill base fabric, is used in the meaning of 'support', because it gave the patches a better quality and more strength than the 1930s - early-1940's felt and wool SSI (the reason why cut edge patches were introduced). Because it's in the middle as a base, the two threads utilized to embroider the patch kept each other together on that material.

 

H.

[jw1969]

A few other examples: on the left is a 82nd AB Div patch embroidered on OD-colored cotton twill; in the middle is one embroidered on khaki cotton twill; and on the right a 101st AB Div patch on blue cotton twill. All are WWII-era pieces.

 

 

[Magnasound]

thanks for posting the photos, that is very helpful. I get what you are talking about now.

 

here's a 7th ID red border with just a little bit of OD "goods" showing. So I would be comfortable in saying it is WW2 era.

 

[Magnasound]

here's a 24th ID with khaki "goods", which could be WW2 era but higher probability of being post-WW2?

 

[Magnasound]

now this one is a little confusing, 7th ID red border but it does not have any visible goods. would this be a same colored goods?

 

[phillock]

 

'Backing', or cotton twill base material / cotton twill base fabric, is used in the meaning of 'support', because it gave the patches a better quality and more strength than the 1930s - early-1940's felt and wool SSI (the reason why cut edge patches were introduced). Because it's in the middle as a base, the two threads utilized to embroider the patch kept each other together on that material.

 

H.

I think clarification is in order here. A "backing" is a generic term to stabilize a patch, where as cotton twill "goods" is the standard material that was used to manufacture and embroid the patch onto, as we all know. Whilst the term "support" can refer to both , felt or theatre made had "backing" to stabilize and protect the patch to stop it from unravelling etc. Below is a CBI without "backing" and with "backing". The Aleutian patch is embroidered on cotton twill but has a mesh "backing" to stabilize it. You will find on theatre made US patches , felt or wool , a "backing" of different kinds of material used. Its all good fun to have these variations and discussions.-Phill

[BROBS]

Wouldn't "carrier" really be a better term?

[Teamski]

Excellent illustration. Now, not to be picking the fly poop out of the pepper, but the correct term (according to the factories) for the material is "goods". Further, it can't be a "backing" because it's in the "middle" of the front bobbin thread and the back bobbin thread.

 

PatchJohnson

 

 

Funny, but in my 30 years of collecting, I have never heard of the twill being called the goods before now. I don't really plan on changing my use of the term backing material anytime soon. The word goods is about as confusing for a new collector as any term possible, IMHO.

 

-Ski

[patches]

 

 

Funny, but in my 30 years of collecting, I have never heard of the twill being called the goods before now. I don't really plan on changing my use of the term backing material anytime soon. The word goods is about as confusing for a new collector as any term possible, IMHO.

 

-Ski

Your right Ski, I thought calling them Goods from now on was a GOOD idea, but now I not so sure it would be really that Good of an idea after all But at least if the description Goods as referring to the Twill Base Material, we'll know what it will mean.

[jw1969]

 

 

Funny, but in my 30 years of collecting, I have never heard of the twill being called the goods before now. I don't really plan on changing my use of the term backing material anytime soon. The word goods is about as confusing for a new collector as any term possible, IMHO.

 

-Ski

 

 

Also MHO too, Ski! Through the years I have had many contacts through e-mail with experienced collectors and with the people who worked with me on my book. The term 'goods' never appeared in their written words. It was always: 'cotton twill'; 'cotton twill base fabric'; cotton twill base material'; 'backing'; 'twill'; 'base fabric'... a term refering to that specific fabric and its specific use.

 

H.

[ztoddman1]

On the note of backing, I have seen some patches with HBT material as the base fabric. Is that WWII? I was kind of leary of them myself.

[patches]

On the note of backing, I have seen some patches with HBT material as the base fabric. Is that WWII? I was kind of leary of them myself.

I wouldn't say you have anything to fear with these, just a varient material used, for instance, there is a 2nd Army varient that has it's 2 machine embroidered on an OD HBT material Background, can't find an image of it just yet, some of the other guys will know which one I'm talking about, it shown in Keller's Army patches book, the Armies and Corps volume.

[jw1969]

I wouldn't say you have anything to fear with these, just a varient material used, for instance, there is a 2nd Army varient that has it's 2 machine embroidered on an OD HBT material Background, can't find an image of it just yet, some of the other guys will know which one I'm talking about, it shown in Keller's Army patches book, the Armies and Corps volume.

 

This is the one you talk about...

 

[patches]

@ jw1969, yes that's the one, thank's. I was always curious if more OD background patches had used OD HBT as a alternative material, say the 1st Army, the 90th Inf Div etc, this 2nd Army seems to be the only one.

[jw1969]

@ jw1969, yes that's the one, thank's. I was always curious if more OD background patches had used OD HBT as a alternative material, say the 1st Army, the 90th Inf Div etc, this 2nd Army seems to be the only one.

 

I checked too. You would expect some others but couldn't find another one than the US 2nd Army...

[phillock]

Hi all

 

If you check closely the OD 82nd is embroidered on a herringbone pattern "goods" as opposed to the standard Khaki pattern.-Phill

[Sabrejet]

Note also that the 82/101 patches have the run-off stitches between the patch and tab so often (erroneously) claimed to be indicative of crossing the English Channel!

[ztoddman1]

ok, thanks for the info, guess I will relax my guard on the HBT base!

[patches]

 

I checked too. You would expect some others but couldn't find another one than the US 2nd Army...

It's interesting, I wonder why this patch a OD HBT 2nd Army, and as it could very well be, this patch alone was made on OD HBT, no real reason, don't really think it was simply to wear exclusivly on HBT fatiques, or was it? but then the wear of Shoulder Patches on HBT Stateside at any rate was rare indeed. late 40s even they were rare this wearing of shoulder patches on the HBT shirt, it was Korea that seen it's use on HBT sky rocket. 2nd Army patch varients as we know are well known to be found on Khaki twill, again presumably to wear exclusivly on the Khaki shirt, but unlike the Khaki version, which I seen more than once in my travels sewn to a WWII M1926 coat and or an IKE, I would find it hard believe this HBT verision would be sewn to the afore mentioned uniform items.

[jw1969]

Hi all

 

If you check closely the OD 82nd is embroidered on a herringbone pattern "goods" as opposed to the standard Khaki pattern.-Phill

 

You're right! I have the patch here next to me and it's indeed HBT backing. I Never saw it till now. Thx!

 

A detail scan of the 82nd:

 

[jw1969]

Note also that the 82/101 patches have the run-off stitches between the patch and tab so often (erroneously) claimed to be indicative of crossing the English Channel!

 

It's indeed 'erroneously'. These are just the embroidery threads (front and back yarn), fixed on the twill by the embroidery machine during manufacture, that run continuously from patch to patch. Often people used their fantasy to explain what these threads could mean.

[Magnasound]

Here's a 17th Abn with what looks like OD backing/goods/support.

 

 

 

[patches]

Here's a 17th Abn with what looks like OD backing/goods/support.

 

17th.jpg17thb.jpg

 

 

That's another example of OD HBT base cloth. good find, it seems this was a material used to a certain degree in the late war as Base/Backing Cloth/Material/Goods.

 

Hmm I'm wondering now if ALL the OD base cloths seen on strictly WWII made patches are in fact exclusively OD HBT rather than OD Twill, the standard Uniform Twill and that the standard OD Uniform Twills started to be used as Base/Backing Cloth/Material/Goods on 50s made shoulder made patches.

[Magnasound]

here's a 3rd Coastal Artillery District still on the backing/support/goods....would this be OD HBT?

 

[patches]

here's a 3rd Coastal Artillery District still on the backing/support/goods....would this be OD HBT?

 

3rd.jpg3rda.jpg

Oh yeah, look at the fine herringbone weave, kinda reinforces my notion that the OD Twill edging of WWII made shoulder patches were in fact mostly if not all Olive Drab Herringbone Twill material, and that true Olive Drab "Uniform" Twill was something used in the 50s into the 60s.

 

For reference, see the HBT weave on this pair of pants.

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/181350-original-ww2-us-army-3rd-pattern-trousers/?hl=%2Bm1943+%2Bhbt&do=findComment&comment=1396016