The FSSF's Johnny Guns.

[patches]

Has this been asked or talked about?

 

What happened to the 1st Special Service Forces' M1941 Johnson Machine Guns after the unit was inactivated in early December 1944?

[patches]

Would they have been handed off to the 474th Infantry?

[Charlie Flick]

Patches:

 

I don't know what happened to the Johnsons, but my guess is that they were probably turned in to an Ordnance outfit and replaced with BARs and M1919A4s. The Johnsons were probably destroyed since they were non-standard and parts support would likely have been difficult.

 

 

Regards,

Charlie

[Johan Willaert]

At least one survived in Europe and now resides in the Detrez collection and is on display in the refurbished La Gleize museum in Belgium...

[patches]

Found this interesting photo the a few weeks ago, it shows Dutch Sailors onboard a Dutch Warship firing Johnson Semi Automatic Rifles and Johnson Machine Guns, the caption refers to this as a photo taken in the later part of the war, or shortly after, as this site if I can recall dealt with the Communists in post war Asia, and the Dutch fought against them in their colonies post war. We do know that the Dutch did buy the Johnson Rifles, for their Colonial Army in the Dutch East Indies but hardly any got over to them. It seems though the Free Dutch Navy received these in a far amount. Since all personel are in summer Tropical uniforms we can safely assume this Photo was taken on a Warship in the Pacific, date unknown, maybe in 1945. But as far as this photo of Dutch Sailors goes, I would say that they, since they are out in the Pacific, may have gotten these Johnson weapons from Marine Corps stores, either in San Diego, or Hawaii.

 

 

 

Maybe this photo might be in relation to the FSSF Johnny guns, perhaps these FSSF Johnny guns after they were turned in may have been givin to other Free Forces in europe that were equipt by America, and used by them as long as they lasted? It would be interesting to find out if this was the case.

[patches]

At least one survived in Europe and now resides in the Detrez collection and is on display in the refurbished La Gleize museum in Belgium...

That's very intersting Johann, could this Johnny gun be one from the FSSF? as we know the Jump Qualified members of the FSSF were sent to the 82nd or the 101st Abn Divs, which was soon commited to action in the Ardennes, though it would be hard to say that a Forceman could personally keep a weapon himself and bring it along with him when he was sent to one of these units on his new assignment. Another possiblity, maybe this Johnny gun was a lend lease, to the Belgium Army that just about reformed a couple of months previously by the Americans, not talking about the original Free Belgium Army in England from the summer of 1940, and equipt by the British, I'm talking about the Belgium Army formed on the continent after September 1944.

[Johan Willaert]

I will ask Detrez where he found it the next time I see him...

 

I have never heard or seen anything that could lead us to believe the Johny Guns were supplied to the Belgians near the end or after WW2...

 

Will post a picture of the gun in the La Gleize museum when I get home tonight

[patches]

I will ask Detrez where he found it the next time I see him...

 

I have never heard or seen anything that could lead us to believe the Johny Guns were supplied to the Belgians near the end or after WW2...

 

Will post a picture of the gun in the La Gleize museum when I get home tonight

Thank's John, If anybody would know it would be you, as you are I gather a Belgian Army historian.

[Johan Willaert]

The Belgian Infantry Brigades that were formed near the end of WW2 and which did not originate from Belgians that fled from occupied Europe towards England were trained in Northern Ireland in late 1944...

Some of them were indeed attached to US Army units in the Bulge and later on in Germany but even then those units were mostly equipped with a mixture of British and US equipment, but mainly British weapons...

[earlymb]

The former Royal Netherlands Army Museum (re-opening next year as the National Military Museum) has at least one Johnson LMG and two Johnson rifles in their collection; I have had all of these in my hands myself. Also see the (poor) pics I took.

 

While it is well known the Royal Netherlands East-Indies Army (KNIL) bought Johnsons and that this batch couldn't be delivered due to the Japanese invasion on the Netherlands East-Indies, the KNIL was also stationed in the WEST-Indies (Surinam, Aruba, Bonaire, Curacao and a few other Caribbean islands) and they did receive a batch of Johnson rifles. I believe these were used there well into the 1960's. I think these rifles were part of the original batch intended to be send to the Netherlands East-Indies.

 

 

 

 

NMM's Johnson LMG in the top of the pic.

 

 

 

Two Johnson rifles... and some other stuff as well!

 

 

 

 

Johnson rifles in use with what is most likely a militia-unit, Surinam, early 1950's. Sorry for the small pic.

 

 

 

Prince Bernhard visits Curacao in 1950. The honour guard on the left carries Johnson rifles. Again sorry for the small pic.

 

I have seen some more pics of Johnsons in use in the West-Indies during WW2, but I can't find them now. I'll have to dig through some books I don't have at hand now.

[dustin]

I feel sorry for the individuals that had to field the JLM, I fired one and it was a bucking kicking mule ! You almost cannot fire it in a standing position as it travels like no tomorrow even in short bursts. You cannot relax and shoot it you have to prepare for battle with the weapon. And if you don't slip the clip in just right the rounds just tumble out of the clip. Every automatic that I have fired I want to shoot again but not this one

[robinb]

I have to second Dustin's assessment about the Johnson. I was with him that day, and also fired one magazine through the beast. A very unplesant experience indeed! Completly uncontrolable during full automatic fire. The magazine must be inserted with a fast push, otherwise the cartridges will jump out and jam the piece.

[patches]

Excellent information on the Dutch service Johnson weapons earlymb, hmm maybe that Shipboard photo of Dutch Matrozen firing Johnson Rifles and the Johnson Machine gun was taken in the Carribbean Sea rather than out in the Pacific?

 

Johan, great information too on the Belgian Army in late 44, in the Orders of Battles given for Allied Forces at the dawn of the German Ardennes Offensive, a couple of Belgian troops were listed in as Army Troops under the U.S. First Army, this being the 5th Fusilier Battalion, and the 6th Fusilier Battalion under the U.S. VII Corps as Corps Troops. There's one photo somewhere in a book that I have or used to have that show troops from one these units, they are in a wheeled vehical and if I can remember some of them while equipt with GI gear, Steel Helmets included are armed with Mausers, I took it that these Mausers were the old Belgian types from 1940 and before.

 

 

The one's I saw in the photo being carried by the Belgian troops were these types, the M1935 type, rather than the M1889 type.

 

[Johan Willaert]

This website from a Belgian friend is dedicated to those Belgian units...

 

http://www.be4046.eu/BnFus.htm

[patches]

WOW that's a superb site Johan, thank's for sharing it, I already Saved To Favorites, I like that 1st Army Shoulder patch worn by the 5th Fus Bn, I wonder if any American 1st Army troops got a hold of the type and wore them, if so, and it showed up on a WWII uniform posted here on the Forum, one might be inclined to say, "Why that's a WWI 1st Army patch"

[Johan Willaert]

You can spend hours on the entire site:

 

http://www.be4046.eu/

[patches]

You can spend hours on the entire site:

 

http://www.be4046.eu/

I shall, not all at once of course

[bob lamoreaux]

I'd like to reply to this thread and the topics raised. First, with regard to earlymb's photo post (first photo) of the light machine gun group: from the rear, Israeli Dror (second model in 8-mm), based on the Johnson M1944 light machine gun with features of the MG-34; an FG-42; JLMG M1941. (I didn't bother to ID the rest of the weapons.) As to firing the JLMG '41, I did not experience the problems stated in the above posts. The JLMG is lighter than the BAR but I did not find firing the Johnson uncomfortable or difficult to keep on target. I didn't have any problem with ammo spilling out of the mag (there are no feed lips on the mag and one has to insert the mag in the mag housing "smartly" to preclude the spilling problem). I could not load the lmg mag through the loading gate (from 5-round clips). Maybe my hands and thumb are too weak, but I just couldn't do it. BTW, I paid $5500 for my JLMG. Sold it. It just (last year or two years ago) at auction for $65,000. Pardon me while I cry a little!

As to the FSSF guns. I suspect they were given the French after the Italy campaign. There is some indication that certain French units ("territorials" -- Moroccan and Algerian) were armed with JLMGs and an unconfirmed report of one JLMG (possibly a '44) in a museum in Viet Nam, giving some indication (if true) that the French received some JLMGs. Unfortunately, I could not locate the Munitions Assignment Board records (probably in London) that would document this.

A few JSARs appear to have made it to Australia and may have reached the Netherlands East Indies troops. Some were kept by the Aussies after the fall of the NEI. The Johnsons that made it to the hands of the Dutch were used by the Dutch Navy, probably in the Netherlands West Indies (Caribbean) and by Dutch troops (colonial troops) in the NWI. Note also that the Johnson rifles and lmgs used by the Marine Corps paratroop units were purportedly given the Dutch marines then training with the USMC.

Lest you think I'm just blowing smoke, check out "Johnson Rifles and Machine Guns -- The Story of Melvin M. Johnson, Jr. and his Guns". I'm the third guy listed as an author of that little tome.

[patches]

Thank's for your expert brief Bob, much appreciated.

[patches]

There this old Topic on the Johnson Machine Guns in French Colonial Service here in this forum, it's listed in the Google search, but I can open it ( I get the ERROR page with "Sorry, we couldn't find that!" nor is this older topic it listed in the archives.

 

See below Google Search page, topic intitled M1944 Johnson LMG-30 Cal Water Cooled.

https://www.google.com/#q=french+army+johnson+machine+guns

 

 

Is there a way to bring this up again mods? it seems interesting and realtive to this current topic.

[Charlie Flick]

There this old Topic on the Johnson Machine Guns in French Colonial Service here in this forum, it's listed in the Google search, but I can open it .....Is there a way to bring this up again mods? it seems interesting and realtive to this current topic.

 

Try this link to the old 2007 thread by Bob Lamoreaux, our own in-house expert on the Johnsons.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/13761-m1944-johnson-lmg/

 

Regards,

Charlie

[Johan Willaert]

Here's a picture of the JLMG in the LaGleize Museum...

 

Sorry it's not the best view...

 

 

[patches]

 

Try this link to the old 2007 thread by Bob Lamoreaux, our own in-house expert on the Johnsons.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/13761-m1944-johnson-lmg/

 

Regards,

Charlie

And this is what I get when I clicked the Lamoreaux link, just like the Google Search page

 

Sorry, we couldn't find that!

[#103139]

You do not have permission to view this forum.

 

Need Help?

• Our help documentation
• Contact the community administrator

 

[Charlie Flick]

Patches:

 

Try the link now. There is a evidently recurring problem with "group permissions" to see threads now located in the Reference section, according to another much more knowledgeable Mod than I who helped to get this fixed. As a Mod I can see everything so I assume that you can, too. This is a glitch we are trying to figure out. It should work for now, but if not let me know.

 

Regards,

Charlie

[bob lamoreaux]

You can sometimes find "old stuff" through the Internet Archives. Do a google search for that site and proceed. Sometimes you luck out! Doesn't work with some of the photo sites (I really don't understand photo sites -- sort of "hosting" sites from which you can download photos onto a forum. Not sure if this makes any sense but I'm not real good at computers, the Net, etc. I just sort of fumble and bungle my way around! LOL)

 

BTW: For those who have the "Johnson Rifles . . ." book, there is an error that I just discovered. Check out the section on the recoilless mortar. The photos don't depict that little development. A tip of the hat to anyone who identifies the mortar. (I know what the mortar is, by the way. And, yes, it is a 2-inch mortar designed and made in the U.S.A.)