cavscout6b Posted September 28, 2013 Share #51 Posted September 28, 2013 These are late pattern chinstraps. Notice the underside. (T1 device obscured for contrast.) On the left; a US issue. On the right; an Austrian copy (U.SCH '74) produced for Denmark. Does anyone notice some differences? 1. Notice the Euro model has a slightly larger fastener. (A bit longer & about 1 or 2mm wider.) 2. The catch "arrow" is longer & thinner on the Euro, vs. shorter & wider on the US. 3. The Euro buckle is squared, flat, and more of a point . The US version is a little more rounded on the edges, a less pronounced point, and the curved "dip" on the end. (The anchor is imprinted on the opposite side.) 4. The hourglass shaped cut-out for the claw is wider on the Euro version. 5. The tabs for adjustment wrap completely around the chinstrap on the US issue, versus the Euro that only partially encompass the chinstrap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavscout6b Posted September 28, 2013 Share #52 Posted September 28, 2013 Just for discussion; I received an Belgian MP helmet with these chinstraps: Belgian marked shell, with a Belgian produced "ABL" liner. These are the only one I have ever seen. (Perhaps Johann can tell us something about them.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Willaert Posted September 28, 2013 Share #53 Posted September 28, 2013 I've Always assumed those straps to be Dutch rather than Belgian... No idea if they were ever factory attached to Belgian shells or not.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted September 28, 2013 Author Share #54 Posted September 28, 2013 It can be very confusing to the uninitiated because of the degree of "cross-fertilization" between these European armies. Initially, WW2 surplus shells and liners were used by Belgium, the Netherlands, Norway and Denmark, so, for example, it's still possible to find a Norwegian helmet with an indigenous liner but a US made shell, albeit re-finished and with different chinstraps etc. When various European / NATO countries began licenced production of their own M1 clones, many were made by W. German and Austrian contractors and purchased by Norway and Denmark. Add to that the minor improvements the individual countries introduced themselves during the helmet's service life and the waters become even more muddied! I won't even mention Israeli and Argentinian M1 clones!! Like with anything else in collecting, it's all down to education and experience. Obviously, we here in Europe encounter these "clones" more frequently than collectors in the USA but some do make it across the pond and end up on the collectors' market. More than once, a "Euro-clone" has appeared on the forum, mistakenly bought as a US M1, so hopefully this thread, although not exhaustive, will help less-experience collectors to identify the various clones which are out there. Just last night I saw an "eBay classic"...a W. German M59 which has an M1 type shell but is fitted with a WW2 style leather Stahlhelm type liner....being sold as an "original WW2 US M1". It's not the first, nor will it be the last! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted September 28, 2013 Author Share #55 Posted September 28, 2013 As noted above...the interior of a W.German M59. Externally similar to an M1 ( but smaller) Internally......!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted September 28, 2013 Author Share #56 Posted September 28, 2013 Then we have the French Casque M51. An M1 derivative with similar suspension and component parts but a differently shaped shell. More than once such shells have been posted on the forum as "unusual M1"...or something like that! Apart from the shape, the shells usually have a white-paint stamp inside with the date and manufacturer. See here: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/176429-looks-like-a-m1-but-its-nottttttt/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted September 28, 2013 Author Share #57 Posted September 28, 2013 Some further T1 buckle comparisons. Belgian on the left, US on the right. The Belgian one is solid brass and the shape is slightly different from the US made buckle. The keeper is also evidently brass. Also note the different weaves of the webbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted September 28, 2013 Author Share #58 Posted September 28, 2013 "J" hook comparison. The Belgian hook (left) is a slightly different shape and, beneath its finish, quite a bright silver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralCheese Posted September 28, 2013 Share #59 Posted September 28, 2013 What about Canadian stuff? Here is a Canadian sweatband for their M1 helmet. It is 100% identical to a US sweatband. It is even made by a US contractor that made them for the US military at the same time. The only difference is the lack of a US contract number, and instead a Canadian contract number is printed on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted September 28, 2013 Share #60 Posted September 28, 2013 Congratulations my Friend, another one of your Topics has been PINNED. A important and useful Topic Ian, thank's for coming up with this, it will go a million miles in helping determine and separate the American from the European helmets and liners and their parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted September 28, 2013 Author Share #61 Posted September 28, 2013 What about Canadian stuff? Here is a Canadian sweatband for their M1 helmet. It is 100% identical to a US sweatband. It is even made by a US contractor that made them for the US military at the same time. The only difference is the lack of a US contract number, and instead a Canadian contract number is printed on it. DSCF1395.JPG Very interesting General! I knew that the Canadians manufactured M1 shells for both themselves and the US Army too, but I didn't know that American sweatbands were procured under Canadian contacts! I've got several Steinberg Bros., examples....identical to your example apart from the Canadian contract number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted September 28, 2013 Author Share #62 Posted September 28, 2013 See...they pop up all over the place! http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/189095-odd-helmet/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burning Hazard Posted September 29, 2013 Share #63 Posted September 29, 2013 Can we also include Israeli and Iraqi M1 clones or are we keeping this strictly to Euro clones? Also, would M1's used by Italy after the war count? I have one used by Italians that may or may not be US manufactured (Front seam swivel bail with heat stamp 101E and no signs of conversion from a fixed bail based on heat stamp records) Thanks guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralCheese Posted September 29, 2013 Share #64 Posted September 29, 2013 Can we also include Israeli and Iraqi M1 clones or are we keeping this strictly to Euro clones? Also, would M1's used by Italy after the war count? I have one used by Italians that may or may not be US manufactured (Front seam swivel bail with heat stamp 101E and no signs of conversion from a fixed bail based on heat stamp records) Thanks guys! Seeing as I posted a Canadian copy, you should be fine. This is to help people avoid buying copies from everywhere, not just Europe. Plus, Israeli M1s are often harder to distinguish if they don't have that third bail, so a side by side would be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavscout6b Posted September 29, 2013 Share #65 Posted September 29, 2013 As noted above...the interior of a W.German M59. Externally similar to an M1 ( but smaller) Internally......!? Has anyone seen these liners used in anything other than German helmets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted September 29, 2013 Author Share #66 Posted September 29, 2013 We might be throwing the net too wide if we include Israeli and Iraqi cones too? Very briefly, the IDF ballistic nylon liner is an almost exact copy of the US original. However, they are easily identified by the "ZAHAL" (Army) logo molded on the inside. The shells are very close to the US M1 but with a third bail added at the rear. Also, the IDF used US M1 shells/liners as the basis for a tank helmet which was basically a regular infantry helmet with the side pieces of a US style M38 tanker helmet riveted to the shell, along with a leather neck protector. As far as Iraqi "M1s" go, their "M80" was actually an M1 clone imported from South Korea. Again, very close to the US original but with various Iraqi Army property marks added. Their later sand coloured plastic helmets have M1 type features but could never be mistaken for M1s! Confusing isn't it!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted September 29, 2013 Author Share #67 Posted September 29, 2013 Another potential source of confusion for M1 helmet collectors are the copies of the US Type 1 (" M-44") camo net used by the Scandinavian armies. They are very similar to the US original but, on closer inspection, there are differences in the weave and colour etc. Such nets are frequently sold as "US originals" on the likes of eBay, so be warned! Originals are quite hard to come by these days and their elastic helmet bands are commonly hard/stiff so they won't stretch over your shell. On the other hand, the Euro-copies, being "newer" are still usable. Be warned...it has been known for some unscrupulous sellers to add a photo-facsimile of USGI issue labels to Euro-nets!! The link below illustrates the differences and similarities very well. (Side note: a re-enactor friend of mine regularly uses a Euro-net on his M1. It's slightly more "green" than a US OD original...but passable nevertheless!) http://www.matshelmets.se/nets.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted September 29, 2013 Author Share #68 Posted September 29, 2013 Danish version of US WW2 net as worn on a Danish M1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted September 29, 2013 Author Share #69 Posted September 29, 2013 Typically to be found on eBayUK...a NATO "M1". At least in this instance the seller has correctly identified it! http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/European-army-surplus-steel-combat-helmet-m1-style-shape-NATO-blue-/171073617951 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted September 30, 2013 Author Share #70 Posted September 30, 2013 This is a classic example of a Euro-clone being sold on eBay as "US Army M1 Helmet....." http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/US-ARMY-M1-HELMET-SET-CAT-EYES-WOODLAND-COVER-/251311792550?pt=UK_Collectables_Militaria_LE&hash=item3a8359a1a6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted September 30, 2013 Share #71 Posted September 30, 2013 Then we have the French Casque M51. An M1 derivative with similar suspension and component parts but a differently shaped shell. More than once such shells have been posted on the forum as "unusual M1"...or something like that! Apart from the shape, the shells usually have a white-paint stamp inside with the date and manufacturer. See here: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/176429-looks-like-a-m1-but-its-nottttttt/ Ian what's the liner look like for this French M51 helmet? Can you post it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted September 30, 2013 Author Share #72 Posted September 30, 2013 Voila monsieur! Look familiar? Obviously, its shape follows the contours of the French shell, but its interior is pure M1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patches Posted September 30, 2013 Share #73 Posted September 30, 2013 Is there an outside exteriour shot of the French liner? I only ask because it's important to see the whol thing to get a id of it, It sometimes appears, this French M51 liner in photos being worn in the early period of the 2nd Indochina war (ie The Vietnam War) by ARVN, with it being incorrectly captioned as U.S. if it's captioned at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share #74 Posted October 1, 2013 Here you go Kevin....a Casque M51 liner. The main difference is the flared rear rim...also present on the shell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share #75 Posted October 1, 2013 French '51 pattern "OTAN" helmet shells and liners usually bear clear white stampings inside them containing the date and manufacturer's logo, as below. I recall once seeing a French liner on eBayUS listed as an "original" WW2 GI liner. The ad featured good, clear photographs including a close up of the crown stamping which read something like " M.LECLERC ET FILS, 1953" as clear as day! So, I sent a polite internal message pointing out the fact that the liner was, in fact, clearly of French origin. The seller ignored me completely, the listing remained unchanged....and the item ultimately unsold! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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