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came early in the mail! my Winchester M1 Carbine.. opinions please.


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Sorry for making a new thread but I think my old one is a little confusing and that new people clicking on it aren't seeing the last page. I need opinions and info on this one ASAP in case I need to do a return.

 

 

I took some detailed photos.. I believe the stock has been sanded but not too much.

The stock is very dry.

 

I don't see any of the telltale marks described previously in the other thread.

Let me know what you guys think.. as I do have a few days for a return (gunbroker).

 

I will try to take some outdoor photos of the whole gun tomorrow.. the full gun pics didn't turn out inside using my phone camera.

thanks,

Brian

M1rearsight2_zps6e2e499a.jpg

 

 

I don't see any peening or any marks that look like the sight has been moved.

M1rearsight1_zps3168ccb6.jpg

 

M1receiver1_zps1bbe67f3.jpg

 

M1receiver2_zps0a6cded9.jpg

 

barrel markings

M1barrelstamps_zps986c2ba5.jpg

 

I don't see any marks on the front sight area that look recent.

M1frontsight3_zps357f5e0b.jpg

 

M1frontsight2_zps4dda3311.jpg

 

M1frontsight1_zpsfce4072a.jpg

 

thanks for the input, fellas.

at this point I still feel I got a square deal... plus my wife likes the rifle :)

 

here is the link to the gunbroker auction.

I need a mag as well... should have noticed that there wasn't one included!!

 

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stock marks.. and I think I can see sanding marks.. (which I'm OK with)

M1stockmarkingP_zps4566aea2.jpg

 

M1stockmarkingCannons_zps4f5244fd.jpg

 

M1magwell1_zps4f40b88c.jpg

 

I don't see anything telling markings on the front band area.

M1barrelband2_zps031cead0.jpg

 

M1barrelband1_zps5803a5c9.jpg

M1bolt2_zps9a7438f5.jpg

 

M1bolt1_zps2e624071.jpg

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I'm not seeing anything major. It's hard to see because of the flash, but the original pics on gunbroker showed more the finish was original than the pics here. The only thing I see that I didn't see the first time is there is a P on the wrist of the stock, that is a rebuild proof mark. But from what you paid for it, and how nice it looked especially on Gunbroker. I think you are fine.

 

Otherwise to get one any better you will have to cough up a lot more money. :)

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By the way it helps sometimes if you don't have a photobooth, take them outside on a deck or something in the shade and take pics without the flash. I used to do that all the time when before I said piss on it and built a little photobooth to take pics.

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I'm not seeing anything major. It's hard to see because of the flash, but the original pics on gunbroker showed more the finish was original than the pics here. The only thing I see that I didn't see the first time is there is a P on the wrist of the stock, that is a rebuild proof mark. But from what you paid for it, and how nice it looked especially on Gunbroker. I think you are fine.

 

Otherwise to get one any better you will have to cough up a lot more money. :)

Do you mean the finish on the rifle or stock?

The metal finish for sure in my eyes looks original... ?

Except maybe the barrel. . Or were the barrels a different finish?

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Do you mean the finish on the rifle or stock?

The metal finish for sure in my eyes looks original... ?

Except maybe the barrel. . Or were the barrels a different finish?

 

 

Oh I mean the rifle. The finish on the rifle is original. The pics on gunbroker showed that for sure. The WRA stocks from the factory have sanding marks, so I wouldn't worry so much about that. All the stocks I've ever had have had sanding marks. Now your stock might have been lightly sanded. But actually I don't think it has been.

 

The only thing I saw wrong is that P on the wrist. That is a proof fire during inspection/rebuild. Mostly it's associated with Rebuild. Now there could be two options. One the stock has been swapped out at some time. Two the rifle went to rebuild but was only inspected and that P was stamped. Which the second is highly unlikely, because of the type I band and sight. Unless it maybe went right after WWII before they got into the major overhaul program getting ready for Korea. My best guess is the stock was switched at one time or another.

 

In my opinion for what you paid, you would search a long time before you found another in that price range that has that much going right for it. Even with that proof p, I think the gun is worth more than you paid. I imagine you could get around 2k for it as it is. If you find a mint low wood WRA stock with the correct cartouches, you are probably in the 3k range.

 

Nowadays WRA mixmaster refinished rebuilds are hovering around 1k. So I think you got a really good deal. I would love to see it in person just to give it the one over to make sure for you. But from what I have seen of the gunbroker pics and these, I think you are just fine, especially for what you have in it. :)

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Hey I was just looking at it again. I started to think about that Proof P on the stock. Can you take a straight on pic of the cartouche on the buttstock? I'm seeing some heavy sanding marks in this area but the cartouche is so crisp. I'm starting to wonder if the cartouche is fake.

 

I have to admit I'm not the best at telling fake cartouches. They are so good now. There is a guy over on another forum thought that can tell you in a second if they are legit. I get any that I question checked by him.

 

So if you get me a really good pic of it, I will ask him and make sure and get back with you.

 

Did the seller have any history of the rifle, where it was or anything like that?

 

Also really look the stock over for any rebuild markings that might have been sanded off. Usually they are on the left hand side of the stock either above the trigger area or on the buttstock area ahead of the slingwell. Really hit it with good light and every angle looking for any dark spots where a rebuild stamp could have been. People sand them all the time but usually you can never erase them. Usually you can see them in fluorescent light or sunlight.

 

Also I doubt the seller would want you to do it, especially if you wanted to return it. But if you rub the stock down with Boiled linseed oil, a lot of times it will bring the markings back up. I've found several over the years doing this.

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Ok I have taken some more pictures..

using the flash in my office with my camera phone obviously isn't cutting it :P

some of these pics are in full sun and some on an overcast day.

the pic closeup of the stock cartouche was with a flash.

M1receiverareatopshade2_zps338f2408.jpg

 

M1sightshade1_zps9bdd3b82.jpg

 

M1serial1_zpse581cfff.jpg

 

M1otherside1shade_zps00dbf439.jpg

 

 

M1sideshade2_zps08a985b7.jpg

 

M1receiverareatopshade_zps0899d83b.jpg

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just looking at these pics on my work computer I can tell they should show all that I can see in person.

Seem much better than the "flash in my office" pics :)

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This is opinion not fact, based on my observations. It appears that the stock was sanded with DA or Duel Action sander, common in body work / body shops. It looks to me that the micro swirls were not sanded out. This leaves small circles in the wood. They show up in good light when looking at the stock at an angle.

 

I would be concerned that the barrel band was replaced, it looks like the area where a type III band would stain/mark the barrel has quite a few marks or dimples. I'm not familiar with these marks and I would be concerned if purchasing a "original" carbine. The recoil plate sits a little low in the stock. It looks like a nice carbine, but in my opinion it's built/restored. If so, the only issue would be the price paid.

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nice carbine and interesting - I agree as stated above - that the stock has been swapped out at some time and the rifle went to rebuild but was only was inspected and that P was stamped. Which the second is highly unlikely, because of the type I band and sight.

 

maybe the stock was switched at the rebuild and nothing else? Does the stock have a W in oiler slot?

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thanks for the comments... I will look in the oiler slot to see if I can see anything.

 

The thing about the marks on the barrel is that they look to have been there before the barrel was finished.. so I think they are just handling marks from the building process.

 

regardless of exactly what it is... I still like it and feel the price was fair. (~1500)

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The rifle is "put-together". I hope you did not buy it as an "original". However, it is a nice "example" of an early "style" carbine.

 

The stock seems to have been sanded a lot (all the swirlys). The crossed cannons and "P" stamps are fake. Way too crisp! Look to be stamped on top of the swirlys.

 

I'm no expert on determining if a rear sight is fake, or not, but I'd bet $100 that one is fake. Spring sure looks too blue in a lot of the photos. Staking around the pin, too perfect.

 

I'd be willing to bet that gun had an adjustable sight and bayo lug on it at one time.

 

The price you paid is not way out of line. A little high, maybe, but all carbines are high now. The repro sight and stamps may just be something for you to learn from.

 

Thanks for sharing and be sure to send some lead down-range!

 

Mike

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The most important part of collecting is that you are happy with your purchase. Every purchase is a learning experience. If you paid high, low, or market value is all part of collecting. I give you credit for posting and asking for opinions, in my mind it is a valuable resource. I have monitored this board for a few years and I have found it to be a very good resource. I think it is important to understand that this is an imperfect hobby.

 

Opinions are just that. I recently purchased a few arsenal rebuilt M1917's. I think I paid $100 to $200 too high, as they were mix masters. But I'm happy with the purchase...and that's what is important. I feel pretty good in the fact that if I hold these pieces as I found them, they will double in value in 5 to 10 years. (yes, always wishful thinking applies) I look at it as a tangible, mid term investment. I'm helping to preserve history and pass it on. I'm a big proponent of handling a piece, and inspection periods prior to purchase. I have found my best friend is familiarization with documented literature, learning from collectors with more experience, and a lot of patience when collecting curios and relics.

 

The market exists because there are a lot of people interested in the subject. Based on my monitoring of the CMP's activities, I don't think that interest is diminishing in the near future. It may actually be growing...but that's a whole different topic.

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Hey I just finally heard back from my friend who is the absolute expert on cartouches. He said it's legit, and original. Congrats! You got a heck of a deal. :)

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Norton.. you are an awesome dude.

You have gone way above and beyond a regular forum-member's duties on here.

If I could give you a "letter of commendation" I would. :) Or perhaps "Meritorious Forum Member" ?

 

Even when I thought the cartouche was fake I still loved the gun.. but this makes me love it even more.

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First, I believe you got a good deal and the carbine is very nice.

 

I also have a Winchester made about 18k units before yours [5628117]. Mine is a NRA rifle from the early 60's. Some of the characteristics that differ from yours are: type 3 rear sight [Hemphill marked], a round bolt dark blued or Dulite finish, no P, circled or not on the stock, a very small w in the sling cut out, type 2 front band with two spot welds above the band tightening screw, no band markings.

 

I noticed that your barrel crown appears to have two or so nicks and they are parked over.

Does your stock, on the bottom, just in front of the magazine well have the typical Winchester flat profile without the trigger housing metal extending beyond the wood, typical of Winchesters?

 

You made a good buy!

 

Chuck

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