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I was searching the net for information on old Camp Butner in NC, and stumbled upon a photo from the NC History museum. It's labeled "Camp Butner, 1947." Many units went there for demobilization, so that it most likely the reason these combat vets were there. Take a look at the pic, and see if anything "jumps out at you." In the next post, I'll point out what struck me as odd. I would appreciate your thoughts and input.

Thanks,

G

 

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Actively seeking North Carolina and 30th infantry Division-related items from all periods.

Also looking for items belonging to veterans that went to The Citadel in Charleston.

 

Troop D, 1-150th Cavalry RGT, 30th HBCT. M1A1 SEP Tank Commander.

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3rd Div patch worn on the lower right sleeve?! Also, they're still wearing four-pocket coats...not an Ike in sight!

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The short, thick guy in the front. The lower right sleeve has what looks like a WWI wound stripe. Now, the odd part is that above the wound chevron is what looks like a 3rd ID patch.

Now why would a unit patch, most likely his "combat" patch be sewn down towards the bottom of the cuff? Tailor's error, or done purposely?

 

Thanks,

G

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Actively seeking North Carolina and 30th infantry Division-related items from all periods.

Also looking for items belonging to veterans that went to The Citadel in Charleston.

 

Troop D, 1-150th Cavalry RGT, 30th HBCT. M1A1 SEP Tank Commander.

OMSA member #7423

US Army Historical Foundation Charter Member

US Army Brotherhood of Tankers member

American Association For State and Local History

Southeasren Museums Conference

Southeastern Registrars Association

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3rd Div patch worn on the lower right sleeve?! Also, they're still wearing four-pocket coats...not an Ike in sight!

 

 

 

Ding, ding, ding! You win!

Now, why is this?

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Actively seeking North Carolina and 30th infantry Division-related items from all periods.

Also looking for items belonging to veterans that went to The Citadel in Charleston.

 

Troop D, 1-150th Cavalry RGT, 30th HBCT. M1A1 SEP Tank Commander.

OMSA member #7423

US Army Historical Foundation Charter Member

US Army Brotherhood of Tankers member

American Association For State and Local History

Southeasren Museums Conference

Southeastern Registrars Association

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The 3rd ID patch down on the right cuff. I submitted pictures and wrote an article in the AAMUC Trading Post some time ago about this same practice. I received no responses to that article. I have 2 uniforms in my collection that have patches low on the sleeve like that. 1 is an 80th ID patch and the other is an Alaskan Defense Command patch. I am interested also to see some responses.

 

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Maybe he was with the 3rd ID in WWI? Interesting.

Always searching for items from 83rd Div (WWII), 3rd Div (Korea), and anything related to the Civil War in Arkansas or Missouri! Will buy or trade!

 

In memory of Pvt Roland L. Gates, Co G, 2nd Bn, 15th Inf, 3rd Division. KIA 15 June 1953 defending Outpost Harry.

 

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Maybe he was with the 3rd ID in WWI? Interesting.

 

That is what I would tend to think.

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

*Sherlock Holmes in "A Scandal in Bohemia"*

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I dont know much about this at all but alot of those guys look older. There are a few younger looking ones. but going on what you all have said about it being a WW1 thing..it could be that very thing!

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Great photo! Of interest to me is that he is also wearing a CIB. Wounded in WWI, served as an infantryman in WWII, earning a CIB. He's a pretty tough old bird!

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Very interesting photo, not sure of course if these guys are all in the same unit, or they are from multple units, too bad we can't make out the shoulder patch on the one at the far right of the photo. The one wearing the 3rd Div on the lower sleeve is a real intresting study, would it be for his WWI service? also a WWI vet at the end of his second war with the CIB, but is a Buck Private.

 

Anyway here's another topic with lower sleeves with shoulder patches sewn on them.

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/152943-unusual-83rd-division-portrait/

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An estimated 47-50 year old WWI veteran is a Pvt in 1947? Seems unlikely; he doesn't look that old. If he is that old in '47, was he an infantryman in WWII or could he have a CIB applied for WWI service somehow? Also unlikely I think. And WWI service would have service chevrons on the left sleeve. Very strange. My bet is that he is a WWII vet with CIB, 3ID service (attached?), and was wounded and is wearing the old wound chevron inproperly.

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My guess is that that 1947 date is incorrect, this would explain the wearing of the 4 pocket coats, no dischage patches are seen, perhaps done before they got them issued and sewn on. Why the Chevron is another curiousity, Perhaps 12A54 is correct in this reguard, for WWI service but in this case wearing on the other sleeve rather than above the current group of insignia, ie Service Stripes, Overseas Bars, again too bad we don't see this on him, that would be a real clincher. As to units that were at Camp Butner, it seems only the 4th Division showed up there, they got there 13 July 1945 and was believe it or not on active duty as a Division till it was inactivated just about 8 months later on 12 March 1946, the shoulder patch on the guy at the right, if it is one, it could be just a photograph distortion, does really seem like a 4th Division patch, unless it's a British Coffee colored one :wacko::lol:

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I've always understood that the wound chevron went on the right sleeve (as in this photo), and service chevrons/hashmarks on the left, so given that, it looks correct in that aspect.

As for him being a private, sometimes the worst garrison soldiers are the best combat soldiers. As true today as it was back then. Lord only knows, but he could've been busted down to private.

Having looked at the thread with other examples of this patch orientation, I am leaning towards that 3rd ID being his WWI combat patch. The only thing that throws in a wrench (other than being against regs, but they were not enforced as strictly then as now) is the example from the other thread with the Alaska Command patch on the lower right sleeve, which, to me, kinda throws it all out of whack.

But, that's just me.

G

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Actively seeking North Carolina and 30th infantry Division-related items from all periods.

Also looking for items belonging to veterans that went to The Citadel in Charleston.

 

Troop D, 1-150th Cavalry RGT, 30th HBCT. M1A1 SEP Tank Commander.

OMSA member #7423

US Army Historical Foundation Charter Member

US Army Brotherhood of Tankers member

American Association For State and Local History

Southeasren Museums Conference

Southeastern Registrars Association

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At one time or another, during the war or post war, Butner also had elements from the 89th,35th, 78th, 3rd and 35 Infantry Divisions. It als had the 54th Replacement Battalion, as well as a Battalion Assistant Surgeon's School. That, in addition to holding first Italian POW's and later German POW's.

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Actively seeking North Carolina and 30th infantry Division-related items from all periods.

Also looking for items belonging to veterans that went to The Citadel in Charleston.

 

Troop D, 1-150th Cavalry RGT, 30th HBCT. M1A1 SEP Tank Commander.

OMSA member #7423

US Army Historical Foundation Charter Member

US Army Brotherhood of Tankers member

American Association For State and Local History

Southeasren Museums Conference

Southeastern Registrars Association

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You know, thinking about it further, it seems likely that the date is incorrect. The War Department closed the camp 31 Jan 1947. Given the gloves (and the one overcoat) they're wearing, it could be January, '47. However, as noted earlier in this thread, there is the complete lack of an Ike jacket.

G

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Actively seeking North Carolina and 30th infantry Division-related items from all periods.

Also looking for items belonging to veterans that went to The Citadel in Charleston.

 

Troop D, 1-150th Cavalry RGT, 30th HBCT. M1A1 SEP Tank Commander.

OMSA member #7423

US Army Historical Foundation Charter Member

US Army Brotherhood of Tankers member

American Association For State and Local History

Southeasren Museums Conference

Southeastern Registrars Association

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I've always understood that the wound chevron went on the right sleeve (as in this photo), and service chevrons/hashmarks on the left, so given that, it looks correct in that aspect.

As for him being a private, sometimes the worst garrison soldiers are the best combat soldiers. As true today as it was back then. Lord only knows, but he could've been busted down to private.

Having looked at the thread with other examples of this patch orientation, I am leaning towards that 3rd ID being his WWI combat patch. The only thing that throws in a wrench (other than being against regs, but they were not enforced as strictly then as now) is the example from the other thread with the Alaska Command patch on the lower right sleeve, which, to me, kinda throws it all out of whack.

But, that's just me.

G

Yeah but the Purple Heart totally superceaded th World War wound chevron, back what? 1932, it's highly unlikely he would wear the chevron at such a late date, a very late date. That he was a Pfc in 1944-1945 ( The Dates I feel this photo was taken, sometime in 1944-1945) could be that if he was a WWI vet reenlisted for the new war, still a PFC, nothing really out of the ordinary, that occured in so many cases.

 

So just who are these troops? wounded ETO and or MTO vets from a array of differant units, photographed at Butner? were not seeing discharge patches that for sure, nor a ribbon for WWII Victory Medal on the one guy with the triple ribbons, that first ribbon may be the Purple Heart, hard to tell, but lets give what I think these ribbons might be, from left to right, Purple Heart, European Campaign, American Defense

 

Don't worry the mystery might get solved lol.

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At one time or another, during the war or post war, Butner also had elements from the 89th,35th, 78th, 3rd and 35 Infantry Divisions. It als had the 54th Replacement Battalion, as well as a Battalion Assistant Surgeon's School. That, in addition to holding first Italian POW's and later German POW's.

Right, I was refering to post VE Day, the idea that this group might be of the 4th Division when it was there. But the more I look at this photo, the more I believe it is a Wartime photo, the late winter of 1844 or the fall of 1944, winter 1944-45, the Group, a Group of MTO or ETO Combat Infantry Vets posted a Butner, most likely wounded, that were sent home, there's the lack of PUC ribbons too, these were generally seen being worn by those men that where in units that earned them post VE Day.

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So after the CIB was instituted and maybe before the Ike jacket became an issue item would likely place the photo in 1944. Still no clues aout the WWI wound chevron which is very out of place and time. And the 3ID on the lower sleeve.

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That sounds about right, 12A54. Patches also brings up a good point about the lack of a PUC, or even an MUC.

Butner did have a hospital back then, but I just cannot imagine that anyone wpunded seriously enough to be evacuated to the states would've ended up here. Unless, that is, they spent some time with the replacement battalion and shipped back out.

G

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Actively seeking North Carolina and 30th infantry Division-related items from all periods.

Also looking for items belonging to veterans that went to The Citadel in Charleston.

 

Troop D, 1-150th Cavalry RGT, 30th HBCT. M1A1 SEP Tank Commander.

OMSA member #7423

US Army Historical Foundation Charter Member

US Army Brotherhood of Tankers member

American Association For State and Local History

Southeasren Museums Conference

Southeastern Registrars Association

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Most seem to be infantry combat veterans wearing CIBs, yet none wear a "former wartime service" (combat) SSI except for the 3ID guy. When were combat patches first authorized for wear?

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Most seem to be infantry combat veterans wearing CIBs, yet none wear a "former wartime service" (combat) SSI except for the 3ID guy. When were combat patches first authorized for wear?

The general consensus is just around VE Day, shorty after it. Yet again another reason why I think it's a wartime photo.

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That sounds about right, 12A54. Patches also brings up a good point about the lack of a PUC, or even an MUC.

Butner did have a hospital back then, but I just cannot imagine that anyone wpunded seriously enough to be evacuated to the states would've ended up here. Unless, that is, they spent some time with the replacement battalion and shipped back out.

G

Who can tell really, my idea of wounded GIs is okay up to a point, notice that only two of them wear ribbons, maybe three, if wounded why no visable PH ribbons, I'm sure they would of worn them. Butner, just what are they doing there? perhaps just assigned personel?

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Who can tell really, my idea of wounded GIs is okay up to a point, notice that only two of them wear ribbons, maybe three, if wounded why no visable PH ribbons, I'm sure they would of worn them. Butner, just what are they doing there? perhaps just assigned personel?

 

Plenty of guys choose not to wear the PH I know my father didn't wear his until after korea and he earned several including one from the Normandy Campaign.

 

As for the photo I think its likely a wartime photo and I think its very likely that the person wearing the 3rd ID patch is a WW1 vet.

LT DAVID SMITH
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Canadian special service medals German WW2 wound badges and wound medals/badges from every other nation

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Plenty of guys choose not to wear the PH I know my father didn't wear his until after korea and he earned several including one from the Normandy Campaign.

 

As for the photo I think its likely a wartime photo and I think its very likely that the person wearing the 3rd ID patch is a WW1 vet.

Did you ever post your father groupings in the Grouping Forum?

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Did you ever post your father groupings in the Grouping Forum?

 

Not yet long story short most of it is with my sister in Ontario so im still trying to get her to send me photos as I want to post it all rather than bits here and there unfortunately I learned that most of the paperwork was damaged last year in a flood :(. Hopefully I can post the group soon though

LT DAVID SMITH
Prince george fire rescue
Always looking to buy

Canadian special service medals German WW2 wound badges and wound medals/badges from every other nation

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