WW2 era Italian made 5th Army patch?

[Patchcollector]

Good evening all,
Here's a fresh find,seller described as "WW2 theatre made in Italy"
I'm fairly new to the WW2 era theatre made pieces, any comments are welcome.
Sellers pics,I'll post my own later.
Thanks!

[36-tex]

Seller is correct; it is a WWII Italian made 5th Army.

[Patchcollector]

Seller is correct; it is a WWII Italian made 5th Army.

 

Thank you for the confirmation Tex

[chcole1]

Looks just like mine.

 

Chris

[Austin R]

Great tapestry style 5th army patch. I've been looking for one myself.

[Patchcollector]

Great tapestry style 5th army patch. I've been looking for one myself.

 

 

Yes I agree,I really like the style of the weave.I'm wondering,does anyone know how these were produced?Was it a special type of loom?

[king802]

Very nice patch. I've got a couple of 34th Div Italian made patches and they have the same weave as this Fifth Army patch.

 

Rich

[Austin R]

 

 

Yes I agree,I really like the style of the weave.I'm wondering,does anyone know how these were produced?Was it a special type of loom?

I believe it was a hand woven on a loom because that's how most artisan tapestries were made.

[Patchcollector]

Very nice patch. I've got a couple of 34th Div Italian made patches and they have the same weave as this Fifth Army patch.

 

Rich

 

Hi Rich,

Thanks,like to see your 34th pieces too!

I believe it was a hand woven on a loom because that's how most artisan tapestries were made.

Wow,Italian craftsmanship never fails to impress me.I wonder how many different units had their patches made this way?I would enjoy seeing other examples of this technique.

[vzemke]

I highly doubt these were "hand woven", especially due to the high numbers that were made and the fact that they are all nearly identical. This is probably the number one most common Italian made patch of WWII (but still a great one).

 

There is another, much older thread on here that shows most of the known units made in this style. It's basically most (but not all) of the units in Italy in 1944-45. 3rd, 34th, 36th, 85th, 91st, 92nd Divisions, 4th Ranger BN, II Corps, IV Corps, FSSF, Armored Triangle (w/ no number), Allied Forces HQ, and MAAF are the ones that come to mind.

 

-Vance

[Patchcollector]

I really like the look of this patch,no matter how it was made.Hopefully,someone on this forum will have definite info on how the Italians made these.

[Jim Baker]

Nice patch! I really like these.

[vzemke]

Here are some more WWII era Italian made woven patches from my collection. I'm still missing the 85th Division, II Corps, Parachute Infantry Cap patch, and probably a few others. I have the Italian made 4th Ranger BN scroll and a 84th Chemical Mortar BN scroll, but didn't want to take them out of the frame they are in right now.

 

 

[vzemke]

And two different 15th Army Group patches that I forgot to put in the group photo above:

 

[Jim Baker]

Vance,

 

That is a nice little collection. I'd like to eventually pick up a 5th Army and FSSF.

[Patchcollector]

Nice bunch of Italian mades! I really like the FSSF piece.I noticed the 10th Mountain tab,but I have a question;did the Italians make the main 10th patch as well?

[king802]

Here's some close ups of my Italian made 34th patches.

 

Rich

 

[king802]

Reverse.

 

[Patchcollector]

Sweet patch,thanks for posting it!I have a few 34th's that I was told are Italian made,but they have a different weave than the "tapestry" variety,and the back is black,if I remember correctly.I will get them out and try and post them here soon.

[Patchcollector]

Actually,I was able to grab the sellers' pics of my 34th so I will post them.

[king802]

That's a nice 34th patch. I've heard the black backed ones are Italian made. I'm looking for one myself.

 

Richard

[Teamski]

That's a nice 34th patch. I've heard the black backed ones are Italian made. I'm looking for one myself.

 

Richard

 

 

Ahhh, careful with that statement. There are US made ones with black backs as well. It has more to do with the stitching patterns more than anything else.

 

-Ski

[jw1969]

I occur with Ski... US made insignia do have black backs too however when I see the type of embroidery on patchcollector's posted embroidered 34th above, it looks like a British made black back to me. These also had a lighter shade of OD border.

Below are three 34th ID patches: A: the British made one, embroidered; B: a US made one, also embroidered; and C: an Italian woven patch.

I don't have a US made black back, but the differences in embroidery style and border color can be seen.

 

The difference between the embroidered and woven patches is the lack of backing material (or cotton twill base fabric) with the latter. They weren't hand woven, but machine woven. A specific feature of the woven patches is the reversed colors on the back of the patch.

 

@ patchcollector: I've never seen a woven Mountain Division shield since I started collecting. I've an Italian made woven 'Mountain'-tab, but only with a US made (embroidered) patch.

 

Hope this helps

H.

 

[88thcollector]

I sold all my reference books but one of the recent ones has the complete history of Italian made patches. The US and British occupation governments got some surviving Italian upholstery mills up and running as a way to get civilians back to work.

[Patchcollector]

Thanks for the info guys!If mine is a British made patch,then I would assume that it's an early war piece,as the 34th was the first U.S. division "over there".Here is some info regarding the units early WW2 history:

 

On 8 January 1942, the 34th was transported by train to Fort Dix, New Jersey to quickly prepare for overseas movement. The first contingent embarked at Brooklyn on 14 January 1942 and sailed from New York the next day. The initial group of 4,508 stepped ashore at 12:15 hrs on 26 January 1942 at Dufferin Quay, Belfast. They were met by a delegation including the Governor (Duke of Abercorn), the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland (John Miller Andrews), the Commander of British Troops Northern Ireland (General G. E. W. Franklyn), and the Secretary of State for Air (Sir Archibald Sinclair).
While in Northern Ireland, Hartle was tasked with organizing an American version of the British Commandos, a group of small "hit and run" forces, and promoted his Aide-de-camp, artillery Captain William O. Darby to lead the new unit. Major Darby assembled volunteers, and of the first 500 Rangers, 281 came from the 34th Infantry Division. On 20 May 1942, Hartle was designated commanding general of V Corps and Major General Charles Ryder took command of the 34th. The division trained in Northern Ireland until it boarded ships to travel to North Africa for Operation TORCH in November 1942.
The 34th Infantry Division saw its first combat in French Algeria on 8 November 1942. As a member of the Eastern Task Force, which included two brigades of the British 78th Infantry Division, and two British Commando units, they landed at Algiers and seized the port and outlying airfields. Elements of the Division took part in numerous subsequent engagements in Tunisia during the Allied build-up, notably at Sened Station, Sidi Bou Zid and Faid Pass, Sbeitla, and Fondouk Gap. In April 1943 the Division assaulted Hill 609, capturing it on 1 May 1943, and then drove through Chouigui Pass to Tebourba and Ferryville. The Battle of Tunisia was won, and the Axis forces surrendered.