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Winchester M1 carbine... does everything look correct? (ASAP answer needed please)


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Right on Ron, couldn't agree more. When I needed a dummy gun for my jeep display, I went to a vendor in Tulsa gun show and told him I needed everything to make a Inland rifle, so he got me all the inland parts to build my dummy gun, so I now have an "Original" Inland..... Original right out of the parts bin.


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I won this one..

we will see when I get it I suppose. ;)

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=358567990

 

 

yes that one for 5k looks great.. but agree that it was either refinished, or truly worth that amount as it looks pristine and in unissued condition.

 

I hope I did well with it.

 

 

Holy cow, in my opinion that went cheap! Good for you! I really like that one, a lot more so that the one Perry sold for $3500 more.

 

Post better pics of it when you get it, but in my humble opinion you got a really good one!

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I have to admit when I bought my very first m1 carbine, I corrected it. But I kept all the original parts to it and labeled them in a bag. Later on I realized the really nice mint ones never saw anything but storage and the ones that were rebuilt, refinished, and had parts changed were the ones that stormed the beaches at Tarawa, or went up the mountain at Suribachi. After that, I really got an appreciation of rebuilds and I put my corrected one back to the mixmaster it was. Nowadays I do not switch anything. Also many times what parts books say are correct, are wrong. Many original parts have been swapped over the years because of what some book said.

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well I know it is basically genuine.. I just wanted to make sure there aren't any red flags of non-matching parts.

I don't want to drop a high dollar amount on something that has been cobbled.

 

I certainly do appreciate your input!

No problem.

 

Thing is with rifles/guns, through out their use, they do get parts altered, some because of wear and tear, or it could be just to modify them.

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CPL.. I want to thank you for all your input about these rifles. It truly helped me find what I feel is a true "gem" that just happened to end the auction last night! I hadn't seen that one listed before, somehow I missed it.

 

Ron.. I totally agree with you. What I suppose I mean by "correct" is just that the parts are either as they were in WW2 or dang close. I just don't want a rifle that someone has "messed with" too much after the war. I guess I would be alright with a put together, but one that saw action in the configuration as I hold it in my hands has much more meaning.

 

The M1 Garand I have is a 1945 Springfield.. that was arsenal refinished and sold by the CMP as a "correct" version long, long ago.

I got it for a very good price locally... and have seen ones not even close to what I have with mixtures of parts selling for 2 times the amount I paid for this "correct" version. I'm sure the CMP probably put on some parts to make it 100% "correct", but like you said I am OK with this as it was done G.I.

 

I will take lots of photos when this Winchester arrives of things not shown in the auction. Any tips on things to photograph and look for (other than the photos shown in the auction) ?

 

thanks again guys... I think I might have lucked out with this one.

-Brian

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I will take lots of photos when this Winchester arrives of things not shown in the auction. Any tips on things to photograph and look for (other than the photos shown in the auction) ?

 

 

 

Mainly look at the pin on the front sight. To change from a bayonet lug back to a type I barrel band, you have to knock out the pin on the front sight. And pull the front sight off the barrel. When you do this, you have to beat that pin out. They are usually a POS to remove. I had one once I had to remove to replace a barrel band that someone cut, and I had the barrel in my barrel vice and hit a punch with a 5 pound sledge and it still wouldn't budge. I had to let it soak in penetrating oil for a week before I could get it to budge.

 

Also look on the wood, a type III barrel band with bayonet lug will leave a discoloration on the barrel from it beign on there. A type I barrel band which is on the Winchester will leave a much smaller scar on the barrel. The same goes for the wood. The type III is twice the thickness of a Type I, so you can see right away if it was changed.

 

Then look at the rear sight. Flat chisel type punch marks are ok as they were done in the field to keep the rear sights from moving. Punch mark stake marks on the rear sight are not ok, those were done during rebuild when they staked on adjustable rear sights. Those punch marks are very deep and really gouge the metal.

 

Those are the two first areas you look for, when you determine originality of a M1 carbine. If anyone needs pictures of what I am talking about, I can take some. I don't think I have any rebuild carbines right now. But I can take pics of what original ones are supposed to be like.

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Brobs, by the way I reread your one post, you say you have a 45 Garand that is a correct grade but it has been arsenal refinished? The correct grades sold by the cmp always had original finish. That was part of the correct grade. If you have paperwork saying the rifle is a correct grade and not for instance a service grade. It would be the original finish. Now if it was a service grade that someone restored to correct condition, then it very well could be arsenal refinished.

 

Original finish on the M1 is pretty easy to tell. Pull back the bolt and look at the chamber. If it is still bright and unfinished in the chamber, it's the original finish. SA finished the barrels with a cap that covered up the chamber so there is no parkerization on the chamber. If refinished, they didn't remove the barrel and sandblasted this area and parkerized it. Collectors refer to the original finish by saying the chamber is in the white. Or otherwise the chamber was never parkerized.

 

The only spot this doesn't ring true is in Winchester Garands. Winchester never cared and most original finish on WRA's had parkerized chambers. The way to tell original WRA garand's finish is the milky finish that is my pics above.

 

But HRA, IHC, and SA all had chambers in the white.

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CPL.. I want to thank you for all your input about these rifles. It truly helped me find what I feel is a true "gem" that just happened to end the auction last night! I hadn't seen that one listed before, somehow I missed it.

 

Ron.. I totally agree with you. What I suppose I mean by "correct" is just that the parts are either as they were in WW2 or dang close. I just don't want a rifle that someone has "messed with" too much after the war. I guess I would be alright with a put together, but one that saw action in the configuration as I hold it in my hands has much more meaning.

 

The M1 Garand I have is a 1945 Springfield.. that was arsenal refinished and sold by the CMP as a "correct" version long, long ago.

I got it for a very good price locally... and have seen ones not even close to what I have with mixtures of parts selling for 2 times the amount I paid for this "correct" version. I'm sure the CMP probably put on some parts to make it 100% "correct", but like you said I am OK with this as it was done G.I.

 

I will take lots of photos when this Winchester arrives of things not shown in the auction. Any tips on things to photograph and look for (other than the photos shown in the auction) ?

 

thanks again guys... I think I might have lucked out with this one.

-Brian

 

 

Brian

 

You got a nice carbine and I have seen other Winchesters locally at auctions sell for more and yours is nicer.Sometime I will have to show you an Inland I have.Looks all period but its the way I got it.

 

RD

In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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Brobs, by the way I reread your one post, you say you have a 45 Garand that is a correct grade but it has been arsenal refinished? The correct grades sold by the cmp always had original finish. That was part of the correct grade. If you have paperwork saying the rifle is a correct grade and not for instance a service grade. It would be the original finish. Now if it was a service grade that someone restored to correct condition, then it very well could be arsenal refinished.

 

Original finish on the M1 is pretty easy to tell. Pull back the bolt and look at the chamber. If it is still bright and unfinished in the chamber, it's the original finish. SA finished the barrels with a cap that covered up the chamber so there is no parkerization on the chamber. If refinished, they didn't remove the barrel and sandblasted this area and parkerized it. Collectors refer to the original finish by saying the chamber is in the white. Or otherwise the chamber was never parkerized.

 

The only spot this doesn't ring true is in Winchester Garands. Winchester never cared and most original finish on WRA's had parkerized chambers. The way to tell original WRA garand's finish is the milky finish that is my pics above.

 

But HRA, IHC, and SA all had chambers in the white.

I guess perhaps it wasn't sold as a "correct" version then but made "correct" after?

To me, the finish is not original as I can see a spot on the receiver that was pitted (by the serial number) that is finished now.

 

so maybe sold as a service grade but with mostly correct parts? then "completed" by someone?

 

I really am not sure and the guy I bought it from wasn't sure. I will have to post detailed pics of it sometime... the parts are "book correct" and it has an uncut op-rod.

 

thanks for the tips on what to look for on this carbine. from the pics on gunbroker it seems that these spots look OK.

 

Ron- would love to see that carbine. I have a cache of WW2 firearms we should meet up and shoot sometime.

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Pitting can sometime be misleading. And really the only way to tell is look at the chamber. You probably stand a good chance of it having the original finish. I've seen more original finish 1945 Garands than I have refinished ones. Even 10 years ago, 1945 Garands weren't as collectible but they have become more in demand in recent years as the earlier WWII ones have dried up. Also the condition of the 1945 Garands is usually a lot nicer than other WWII garands. I think I sold an original 1945 Garand for about $2500 the last time I had one for sale. You might be sitting on a really nice expensive rifle and not even know it! :)

 

A picture is really worth a 1000 words. The top chamber is in the white and has the original finish. The bottom picture is of one that has been rebuilt and refinished.

 

P1130501.jpg

 

P1130505.jpg

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Denfinately agree with CPLN.

 

One thing I have noticed on Winchesters is they seemd to be not finnished as well compared to Garands or Carbines by other makers.Seems for the prices they bring the metal finnish-machining etc seems rougher to me.I know it was wartime and all but the Winchester seems to bring more money at auctions here.Just like a Colt will bring more than a Smith or comprable revolver here.People will pay more for the name in many cases.

In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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By the Way CPLN

 

Great rifles and info you have provided(two thumbs up) B)

In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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Thank you for the kind words Doyler. I am just trying to give back to this forum on my experience with weapons the same way you all do with me on uniforms and gear. It's my way of paying everyone back. :)

 

Plus I have lost thousands of dollars by making rookie mistakes and I hope that maybe I can help someone else from being ripped off like I was when I first started.

 

 

Here are some quick pics to look at for Carbines. I wish I had a rebuild right now, so I can really show the different side by side, but the closest I have is one that I bought that was original and had a broken stock. I put another stock on it, but it will at least show some of what to look for.

 

 

First think I look for is the front pin on the front sight. To switch from a bayonet lug band to the early type I or Type II, you have to knock this pin out left to right. They are very hard to remove, and you really booger them up taking them out. If you see any signs of this pin being removed, your band is probably not original to the gun. The pin should look like this.

 

P1130519.jpg

 

P1130518.jpg

 

 

 

 

On the rear sights, when they switched from a flip sight to an adjustable sight during rebuild, they would move the windage to one side or another and then they would take a big round pin and pound it down hard in a circular pattern to keep it from moving. These big pot marks are a sure sign of rebuild and an obvious way to tell if your's has been faked. If it has big pits in this area from a round punch and then has a flip sight reinstalled. You know it's messed with. Now sometimes they are hard to see and you have to take a flashlight under the flip sight and look at the receiver. But if you look just right you can see them. Also adjustable sights were changed in the field in late 44 and 45. Those were usually not punched unless they went thru rebuild again. So in that case, people can usually switch back to a flip sight without much way to know otherwise. In this case check the front pin and see if it's been removed. If the front pin has been, then you know what you are looking at again.

 

This pic below is actually not near as severe as the punch marks that were made during rebuild but they are in the correct location. This is actually factory staking on this rear sight. But that is only because if is late 1944 and Inland was doing this on the factory guns at this time. This is a type II rear sight on a 6.2 million M1 carbine. But look where the factory staking is, and that gives you an idea of where to look. Rebuild staking in this area is often referred to as craters, as they look like the surface of the moon.

 

P1130506.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now on flip sights, the GI's did stake them so they wouldn't move. This was usually done on the range or the field. But the way it was done is different. They used the edge of a knife and made a knife cut or sometimes referred to as a flat chisel mark on the metal to keep the flip sight from moving. This flat style of staking is ok. So unlike in the field of woman and boobs, flat staking equals good, big round staking is bad. :)

 

P1130529.jpg

 

 

 

Now this is another obvious way to tell if your gun has been messed with. Look at the front band area on the wood. The original type I front band is very narrow compared to the type II band without the bayonet lug, and the type III that had the bayonet lug.

 

If the stock is original to a rifle that originally had a type I band, it will only have a narrow imprint in the wood. In this case this is one that is original, but had a broken stock that I swapped. See how there is remnants of where this stock was once on a rifle that had the fatter band? If original, and has a type I band, the imprint should only be the size of the band, not bigger. See the imprints in the wood of a later type II or Type III band.

 

P1130525.jpg

P1130514.jpg

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This is the last thing to look for if you want to see if the bands have been replaced. This is really hard to see in the photo, but if you have it side by side with a carbine that had a Type III band that was switched, you can really tell. There should be different shades where the metal was exposed to the outside world, and what is covered up by the stock. Basically the shades of the metal should correspond only to the small band and the wood that is covering it up. If the shad of the metal far extends the band and the wood, you know what it is.

 

P1130513.jpg

 

 

One more thing to add to all of this. About all early Type I and Type II bands were switched by the Army starting around 1947 during the major rebuild programs of the time. They really ramped their efforts to do so by the time Korea came around. Very, very few rifles in the US inventory would have escaped this happening. That is why it is so rare to find them without bayonet lugs. They also switched to adjustable rear sights starting in 1944, because honestly the flipped sights sucked. So usually unless the carbine is a bring back, they will show these later changes. Or they have been restored as well.

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awesome info and pics CPL

that really shows me what to look for on this one.

 

honestly I am OK with a few things being replaced/"corrected" but we will see the extent when I get it.

 

now I am going to have to pull out my Garand when I get home and check the chamber. From your pics it doesn't seem like a big difference... is it easy to tell?

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I think Brians luck is rubbing off.I picked up a carbine after work.

In Memoriam:
Lieutenant J.Kostelec 1-3 First Special Service Force MIA/PD 4 March 1944 Italy
I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT IS DAYLIGHT
Forget about the tips..We'll get hell to pay (AC/DC)
"If you cant get out and run with the big dogs then sit on the porch and bark at the cars going by.."

Have you Hugged a Clown Today?

You Cant Get A Sun Tan On The Moon..





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Right on Ron, couldn't agree more. When I needed a dummy gun for my jeep display, I went to a vendor in Tulsa gun show and told him I needed everything to make a Inland rifle, so he got me all the inland parts to build my dummy gun, so I now have an "Original" Inland..... Original right out of the parts bin.

 

 

Just curious Hawk, why did you need it to be a "dummy gun". Do you live in Cali or Mass?

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Shine a flashlight in there. If it is dark, and the same color as the metal on the receiver it is parked. If it is bright and shiny, like untreated steel, then it's original finish.

looks dark.. not as dark as the receiver but dark.

 

I am thinking it was put-together.. which is alright and what I thought it was.

 

I paid under $1k for it.. so I still think it was a fair deal.

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Ok so it arrived today.. a day early!

I took some detailed photos.. I believe the stock has been sanded but not too much.

The stock is very dry.

 

I don't see any of the telltale marks described previously in the thread.

Let me know what you guys think.. as I do have a few days for a return (gunbroker).

 

I will try to take some outdoor photos of the whole gun tomorrow.. the full gun pics didn't turn out inside using my phone camera.

thanks,

Brian

M1rearsight2_zps6e2e499a.jpg

 

 

I don't see any peening or any marks that look like the sight has been moved.

M1rearsight1_zps3168ccb6.jpg

 

M1receiver1_zps1bbe67f3.jpg

 

M1receiver2_zps0a6cded9.jpg

 

barrel markings

M1barrelstamps_zps986c2ba5.jpg

 

I don't see any marks on the front sight area that look recent.

M1frontsight3_zps357f5e0b.jpg

 

M1frontsight2_zps4dda3311.jpg

 

M1frontsight1_zpsfce4072a.jpg

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stock marks.. and I think I can see sanding marks.. (which I'm OK with)

M1stockmarkingP_zps4566aea2.jpg

 

M1stockmarkingCannons_zps4f5244fd.jpg

 

M1magwell1_zps4f40b88c.jpg

 

I don't see anything telling markings on the front band area.

M1barrelband2_zps031cead0.jpg

 

M1barrelband1_zps5803a5c9.jpg

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