BROBS Posted August 21, 2013 Share #1 Posted August 21, 2013 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=360036907 I want to buy this and from poking around everything looks good... any red flags? thanks. -Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welshman Posted August 21, 2013 Share #2 Posted August 21, 2013 I'm not into American Gear in a big way, but I know what I like, and this looks good genuine one to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROBS Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share #3 Posted August 21, 2013 well I know it is basically genuine.. I just wanted to make sure there aren't any red flags of non-matching parts. I don't want to drop a high dollar amount on something that has been cobbled. I certainly do appreciate your input! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john k Posted August 21, 2013 Share #4 Posted August 21, 2013 No expert here, but shouldn't it have the flip style rear sight if it's original WW2 era and not reworked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted August 21, 2013 Share #5 Posted August 21, 2013 The rear sight is the adjustable model, which may or may not be how it left the factory, if that is what you are looking for. Typically, an adjustable rear sight indicates arsenal refurbishment at some point in time. It is still GI, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROBS Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share #6 Posted August 21, 2013 right.. I can tell from the park it was probably a CMP gun, however I am OK with that. I just wanted to make sure the main stuff is OK.. the barrel is Winchester? I am not seeing a "W" mark on it unless I am looking at a picture incorrectly. and is the sight still WW2 vintage? I plan on buying the book "war baby" but this one came up for sale before I have had a chance to buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cplnorton Posted August 21, 2013 Share #7 Posted August 21, 2013 I would want to see the inside of the type II band to make sure it's not a cutdown. Also a close up of the pin on the front sight. In late 1944, the flip sights were discontinued and by late 44, to early 45, the Type II adjustable sight was put on the carbines. Winchester switched to a type II at the 5.7 million range. A couple things bother me, I'm not sure a flat style bolt would be correct for this late of serial, it probably should have had a round style. I also am not sure on the WU hammer, that is most likely a subcontracted part and not Winchester. WU I think is actually more correct for underwood if I remember right. As of right now, for the money it's going for, I would probably pass. But I will look it over more closely and get back with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldfireguy Posted August 21, 2013 Share #8 Posted August 21, 2013 The adjustable sight is OK. It's a 44 SN dated and they used both sights in 44. It looks good from the photos but you won't see the bad until you get it. Bolt was flat so it's not an issue. Hammer should be marked W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cplnorton Posted August 21, 2013 Share #9 Posted August 21, 2013 Also looking at it again the mag catch is a type IV with the M underlined, those didn't show up till later in the Winchester line. In my honest opinion now it's a put-together. I would pass on it for that kind of money. And the real telling part is a pic of the front of the barrel band. I would want to see if it is a cutdown type III. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROBS Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share #10 Posted August 21, 2013 ok.. thank you for the input.. I will pass for now. I just really want a Winchester M1 Carbine, as that is what my Grandfather carried during the war as a Seabee. I agree that some of the pics were perhaps intended to deceive .. although maybe some of these changed parts could have been CMP done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROBS Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share #11 Posted August 21, 2013 what about this little guy? http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=358567990 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cplnorton Posted August 21, 2013 Share #12 Posted August 21, 2013 The CMP never sold any carbines with a type I or Type II barrel band. Any they had went straight to auction and brought a huge premium. Also the certificates of Auctioned CMP guns say auction right on the certificate. All service grade and below carbines sold by the cmp were rebuilds with adjustable sights and bayonet lugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROBS Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share #13 Posted August 21, 2013 ok good to know.. so they never sold any "correct" versions like the Garand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cplnorton Posted August 21, 2013 Share #14 Posted August 21, 2013 what about this little guy? http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=358567990 I would want to see more pics of some of the markings, but I think I have sold some stuff to the seller before. Or maybe I have bought off him? I am pretty sure we have done business before. But that one looks good from what I can see. It has it's original finish. Original type I sight and band. You can tell they are not repos. That one looks really nice, but I am guessing it will hit 3k before it's done. WRA's in that condition always bring a huge premium. I see if I have more pics on my computer on what to look for, but first thing to look for is the milky finish of original Winchesters. Here is one to compare the finish on. I just had this on my computer to show someone the fattest of the pistol grip area, but you can see the color of the finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cplnorton Posted August 21, 2013 Share #15 Posted August 21, 2013 ok good to know.. so they never sold any "correct" versions like the Garand? Not on the carbine. I'm sure they sold some at auction, but those were special sales and that info is usually never lost. And that quantity would be very, very small. Probably not more than a few handfuls if even that. I would be the best selling point on the rifle if you were to sell it, so I guarantee about any seller would list that right away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROBS Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share #16 Posted August 21, 2013 interesting about the finish.. I had almost thought that it was lacquered or varnished over I might take a poke at bidding on that one. CPL: thanks for the info on CMP carbines!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cplnorton Posted August 21, 2013 Share #17 Posted August 21, 2013 Something I should add about carbines. I have bought probably a 100 or so over the years on the internet. At least half that number were advertised as original. Also I look at about every carbine I see at shows, and I go to a show about every weekend as I set up at most of them. I deal in only WWII US, so I know all the big time dealers out there. Out of probably 1000's that I have looked at, I have only ever seen 4 in person that I think are original. That is how bad carbines are messed with. EVERY single one that I have bought online I have found a fault with, there was at least one thing on it that made me think it was messed with. Fort that reason, I never buy any carbines online anymore. I think they are some of the most faked US rifles out there. And they are very easy to pass off as original to an untrained eye. And unfortunately no amount of pictures for carbines will tell you very much until you hold it in your hands and look at it in person. You can have an idea, but to look for stake marks under the rear sight, or barrel band shadows on the barrel or stock, you really need to look at it in person honestly. Buying an original carbine is a very tough thing to find. Unless they were brought back at the end of WWII illegally, 99.9% of them were rebuilt. And even ones that weren't rebuilt, many had the rear sights changed to an adjustable rear sight in the field. So even a WWII bringback might not be original. I guess what I am tyring to say is, if you do buy one, get a three day inspection period. And as soon as you get it, take about a million photos of every angle and post them on a forum for collector's to truly examine for you. Or better yet, find someone in your area that is a true expert and have them look it over. And not just someone who tells they are an expert. Research their credentials as well. I have met more "experts" in my life that novices, and I think we all know the truth in that. Original carbines are a very sticky area of collecting. And you can get taken very, very fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROBS Posted August 21, 2013 Author Share #18 Posted August 21, 2013 it does have a 3 day inspection which makes me feel good.. the 1st one I posted did not. (I wonder why?...... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cplnorton Posted August 21, 2013 Share #19 Posted August 21, 2013 interesting about the finish.. I had almost thought that it was lacquered or varnished over Yeah WRA had an interesting finish. Even their Garands had the same finish. Here is the same finish on their Garands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldfireguy Posted August 21, 2013 Share #20 Posted August 21, 2013 Beautiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cplnorton Posted August 21, 2013 Share #21 Posted August 21, 2013 Here are some more pics of an original WRA. Hopefully this gives you a little better idea what to look for. Notice the finish again. Another quick giveaway is that the bolts on original carbines were blued, not parkerized. They were parked during rebuild. Also notice the color of the wood. All WRA wood is this color for some reason. At least ones that were unsanded. Hopefully this will help you out some. That is a lot of how I learned. I examined pics of known good ones and started to figure out what to look for. Also I always tell people as well if you get into this field, invest the money in books first. They will more than pay for themselves on your first purchase. Because 9 out of 10 times you will be taken on your first purchase. Believe me when I said I was! lol But this one was a bring back. I got it direct from the grandson when he walked into a local show with it. He wanted $500 for it. One look at it, I didn't argue and handed him his money. Even though honestly I probably could have got it for $400, as he just wanted whatever he could get for it. This was only about two years ago, so after to showing to some of the other big collector's there, I was officially hated that day. It seems at least one person at every big show finds a deal like this everytime. It's hard to belive with the internet and all the knowledge out there you find deals like this anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damcon3 Posted August 21, 2013 Share #22 Posted August 21, 2013 Here is the last completely correct Winchester I saw sell. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=347347944 A little out of my price range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cplnorton Posted August 22, 2013 Share #23 Posted August 22, 2013 Here is the last completely correct Winchester I saw sell. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=347347944 A little out of my price range. That's Perry. He about bought all my Winchesters here a couple years back. He's a pretty good guy, but I have to admit, I would have to look at this one in person. To me it looks refinished. But I would really have to see it in person to make a true judgement call on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROBS Posted August 22, 2013 Author Share #24 Posted August 22, 2013 I won this one.. we will see when I get it I suppose. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=358567990 yes that one for 5k looks great.. but agree that it was either refinished, or truly worth that amount as it looks pristine and in unissued condition. I hope I did well with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted August 22, 2013 Share #25 Posted August 22, 2013 B Looks like a nice carbine you won.Great little rifles. As far as condition and originality to me there are three things I always have considered on Carbines,Garands and 45 autos. 1.Original...the way it left the factory and or a bring back from a vet.(which may or may not have replaced parts..stock,barrels etc done war time) 2.Rebuild or refurbished from the Arsenal... 3.Correct To me a rebuild is just as original as one from the factory.I dont have issues with them as this is part of the weapons history.Kinda how it spent its life and the changes it went through. Then you have the "Correct" types.Seems this is an on going issue these days as there is a trend to take a rifle and replace parts on it to make it "original".Everyone buys a book then goes to work replacing the parts according to the book.To me its not original but something some one has messed with to make it"correct" in their eyes.These guys change sites,bolts,bands etc to make it "right"to me its messed with.Its not original and its "assembled".Easy to do with US rifles as there are really no matching numbers as there is say on a Mauser 98k or a Type 38 or Type Arisaka.I would just as soon have the re-build then something assembled.. I guess its all what one wants for the collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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