WWII M1C Para helmet and brass components

[DKNYC71]

Just as side note: I have spoken recently to one of the MOST astute airborne collectors in the country (US), someone who has been collecting since the 60's and is still collecting, when most folks here on the forum were either in baby strollers or not even born, and he had stated, that swivel bail paras (M1C's or whatever you whish to call them) were indeed worn in combat in the ETO. Folks that he had been friends and dealing with from across the pond for decades HAVE found them over there and not in collections or militaria markets. So take that for what it is worth.

[jkash23686]

Just as side note: I have spoken recently to one of the MOST astute airborne collectors in the country (US), someone who has been collecting since the 60's and is still collecting, when most folks here on the forum were either in baby strollers or not even born, and he had stated, that swivel bail paras (M1C's or whatever you whish to call them) were indeed worn in combat in the ETO. Folks that he had been friends and dealing with from across the pond for decades HAVE found them over there and not in collections or militaria markets. So take that for what it is worth.

 

And if the book that were written in the early days of collecting were 100% correct there would only be one book on the subject. But it seems that the collective knowledge grows and grows with time as more people do research and write their findings. And some of those astute collectors are here on this forum and others.

 

No need to get snippy and pull the baby collector crap, I'm not saying that its not possible these pics exist, I was just simply saying I'd love to see them since I never have in the many sites books and IDed helmets I have seen.

 

And in the long run since most of us collecting were not there it all comes down to what you want to believe sometimes, just like swivel bail use on D-day etc.

[DKNYC71]

There is no snippy tone, just common sense. I do not think that there is much of a debate about swivel bales on D-day, that is also common sense. However to think that swivel bales never made it into combat in the ETO is ignorant since they were already being issued across the board in the states in 1944. There was material manufactured in early 45 that made it into combat in the ETO before the end of the war, so to think that a helmet which was being issued in the states in 44 not making it into ETO is silly. And YES, it helps having been a colletor for several decades vs, 3-5 years, that is also common sense, and to deny that fact is both arogant and ignorant. And YES, we are all students, always learning, even those that have collected way before many folks on this forum were familiar with the term "militaria".

[jkash23686]

I do not think that there is much of a debate about swivel bales on D-day, that is also common sense.

 

Do a search just on this forum and its far from cut and dry on the swivel bail on D-day issue.

Swivels in the ETO yes, actually used on June 6th 1944 not so much

I also think that this airborne stuff caries such a high price tag, you get gun shy without "proof" (Me included). The old buy the helmet not the story motto.

[DKNYC71]

 

Do a search just on this forum and its far from cut and dry on the swivel bail on D-day issue.

Swivels in the ETO yes, actually used on June 6th 1944 not so much

It is pretty obvious, that to find a true swivel bail para helmet on the D-day jump would be a VERY tall order. Perhaps a regular swivel M1 in the beach landings, and I mean "Perhaps". but a true swivel bail para helmet (non-modified) in the jump, VERY diffcult, that is pretty obvious.

[jkash23686]

It is pretty obvious, that to find a true swivel bail para helmet on the D-day jump would be a VERY tall order. Perhaps a regular swivel M1, and I mean "Perhaps". but a true swivel bail helmet para (non-modified), VERY diffcult, that is pretty obvious.

 

I meant swivel ground pounder not parra sorry for the confusion. Thats been discussed here several times.

[38Driver]

There is no snippy tone, just common sense. I do not think that there is much of a debate about swivel bales on D-day, that is also common sense. However to think that swivel bales never made it into combat in the ETO is ignorant since they were already being issued across the board in the states in 1944. There was material manufactured in early 45 that made it into combat in the ETO before the end of the war, so to think that a helmet which was being issued in the states in 44 not making it into ETO is silly. And YES, it helps having been a colletor for several decades vs, 3-5 years, that is also common sense, and to deny that fact is both arogant and ignorant. And YES, we are all students, always learning, even those that have collected way before many folks on this forum were familiar with the term "militaria".

The danger of using the " I've been at this longer than you" argument is it also can represent a real set in stone attitude. If anything the new faces looking at this stuff is a good thing as often the questions or observations come from a different perspective.

 

In the end folks are looking for more than just opinion. They want proof. Find the smoking gun and the debate ends. I think that's why folks are wanting to see the photo evidence.

[DKNYC71]

 

I meant swivel ground pounder not parra sorry for the confusion. Thats been discussed here several times.

I agree with you on this point. It is very likely that a regular swivel bail M1 which was being issued in 1943 made it to the beach landings.

[DKNYC71]

The danger of using the " I've been at this longer than you" argument is it also can represent a real set in stone attitude. If anything the new faces looking at this stuff is a good thing as often the questions or observations come from a different perspective.

 

In the end folks are looking for more than just opinion. They want proof. Find the smoking gun and the debate ends. I think that's why folks are wanting to see the photo evidence.

Before actual "photos" are posted (and I am sure will be debated), the helmet which I had posted earlier, the helmet which was brought back home from the ETO by a combat vet from the 307th AEB, 82nd AB, and that was acquired directly from him about 20 years ago, does constitute an element of proof of the swivel bail para being in the ETO.

[jkash23686]

I agree with you on this point. It is very likely that a regular swivel bail M1 which was being issued in 1943 made it to the beach landings.

 

Not taking sides on the D-day matter just saying its been debated here many many times, I'm keeping my mouth shut on that one

[Sabrejet]

The problem is there's still no proverbial "smokin' gun". Sadly, the ones who actually would have worn them get fewer with each passing year...and anyway, do you think they would seriously remember such a trivial detail 70 years later as to which kind of bails their helmet had...young, frightened boys, thousands of miles from home, about to go into combat for the first time? I think not! At the end of the day, the deciding factor will be either the emergence of a bring-back helmet from the estate of a vet with cast-iron provenance that he wore it in combat on the date in question...either that or an accurately dated official Signal Corps photo which shows something clearly enough not to be supposition like that is it / isn't it?picture posted elsewhere. Alas...it might remain one of life's great unsolved mysteries!

[ken88]

Just ask yourself this: how come EVERY helmet, aside of the reproductions, ever found on the battlefield IN Normandy OR displayed in whatever museum you can find IN Normandy has fixed bails?

 

Are all the swivel bails hiding in a barn?

 

These helmets are an accurate representation when it comes to the equipment every GI was wearing at the time of the invasion. It is however possible that some unit was issued the newer type of helmet just before the invasion, but who will tell?

 

Captain Miller in Saving Private Ryan is wearing one... Other than that no one has ever been able to come up with some proof, it hasn't got anything to do with common sense, it's all about evidence. Photographic evidence in the first place.

 

For what it's worth, can you trust the memory of a veteran when it comes to something so small? Do you really think he will remember what bails were on his helmet 70 years ago? Did he care at the time? Or was there a war on, putting his life and that of his buddies at risk? What do you think he remembers most? The sight of those siwel bails on his helmet, or the sight of his buddy next to him, heaven forbid, guts out and begging for his life?

 

Just saying... The brain is capable of doing awesome things, but ask someone to remember such detail after decades and decades and his memory could let him down. Do you remember what tyres were on your first bike? I know I don't...

[Beau-Brummel]

 

Just saying... The brain is capable of doing awesome things, but ask someone to remember such detail after decades and decades and his memory could let him down. Do you remember what tyres were on your first bike? I know I don't...

 

 

Avon Roadrunners and they nearly killed me .

[DKNYC71]

Just ask yourself this: how come EVERY helmet, aside of the reproductions, ever found on the battlefield IN Normandy OR displayed in whatever museum you can find IN Normandy has fixed bails?

 

Are all the swivel bails hiding in a barn?

 

These helmets are an accurate representation when it comes to the equipment every GI was wearing at the time of the invasion. It is however possible that some unit was issued the newer type of helmet just before the invasion, but who will tell?

 

Captain Miller in Saving Private Ryan is wearing one... Other than that no one has ever been able to come up with some proof, it hasn't got anything to do with common sense, it's all about evidence. Photographic evidence in the first place.

 

For what it's worth, can you trust the memory of a veteran when it comes to something so small? Do you really think he will remember what bails were on his helmet 70 years ago? Did he care at the time? Or was there a war on, putting his life and that of his buddies at risk? What do you think he remembers most? The sight of those siwel bails on his helmet, or the sight of his buddy next to him, heaven forbid, guts out and begging for his life?

 

Just saying... The brain is capable of doing awesome things, but ask someone to remember such detail after decades and decades and his memory could let him down. Do you remember what tyres were on your first bike? I know I don't...

 

And what is your point? You wrote many words, but they mean what? That there is no proof of swivel bales at Normnady? Great, you are probably correct, nothing is 100% but I would be inclined to believe that swivels never made to Normandy landings from either the beach or the air You watched "Saving Private Ryan"?, Great, I hope you found it interesting This thread is not about Normandy

 

This thread has turned into: Did true swivel bail para helmets (M1C or what ever designation they may have had) make it to the ETO before the war ended? And I am stating that they most likely did. The helmet I had posted from a friend's collection came directly from a veteran who served overseas in combat, did not serve occupation, was discharged shortly after getting back to the States. Could he have been issued a new helmet while awaiting his discharge for a few weeks or a month? Perhaps, but not likely. Was the vets memory clear 20 years ago? I would assume so, he still drove a car and made it into his office 3 times a week to do work. Did he have any reason to state that he brought this helmet back from Europe when was shipped home? Probably not, he actualy gifted the helmet to my friend who at the time was his neighbor.

 

In regard to memory, you would be surprised what small details vets remember. I have spoken to many vets over many years and I was often very surprised at their clear long term memory. I had aquired German bring back material with such acurate detail as to where what came from and under what circumstance you would be stunned. Last year I had acquired a kiler painted A-2 jacket from a 92 year old former B-26 co-pilot who remembered the squadron bombardier who painted his jacket in Belgium in 1945 and had given me a photo of that bombardier along with the history of the fellows family. Oh, and by the way, the vet still rides a bike and is invloved in social events weekly.

 

Again, take all of this for what it is worth. In any event, I hope folks enjoy the images of the helmet I had posted that came form the 307th vet.

[ken88]

Of course, there's nothing wrong with that helmet and it's a beauty. All I'm saying is: never take things for granted in this business. Heck, some folks would swear their grandfather's helmet he brought back from 'Nam was used in Normandy just because he was there as well... If you know what I mean. Some people are just too stubborn and dreamy to deal with the facts. You'd be surprised what kind of collections these so called experts own and what kind of beautiful artefacts are in them. These folks will sometimes deny everything you tell them, even if you show them undeniable evidence.

 

I'm just saying this because in the early days of collecting people fooled me as well, and I'd do everything I can to keep others from making the same mistakes I did. It's all about knowledge and evidence. If someone pops a picture showing swivel bail helmets in, for instance, Normandy, I'll be the first one to accept the fact and will be glad about it too. Until then, I'll simply assume the different, independent sources telling me only fixed bails were used there and then are right. That's what authors and historians, who were in this business long before I was, are good for. Education.

 

About swivel bails being used in the ETO before the end of the war: sure. Photographic evidence shows us that they were already used in Normandy, but not at the time of the landings (ca. late in the summer of 1944).

We're talking about regular M-1 helmet shells, being used by foot soldiers as Jamie said.

 

Recovered artefacts suggest that paratroopers used to mate their liners with regular swivel bail shells at a later time.

 

Following picture suggests that the M-1C helmet was indeed used in the ETO, but not before VE-day (there's no evidence for that yet, and I'm looking forward to see it).

 

First battalion, 502 PIR, Auxerre, France, summer of 1945. So yes, they were worn in Europe. But in combat?

 

[DKNYC71]

I can certainly agree with you on many points, also I can believe that either regular M1 swivels were or were not used in Normany, that can go either way as logic would stipulate. But I also believe that true swivel bail para helmets were used in the ETO prior to VE-day, that would also make logical sense.

[Sabrejet]

Photographed by me in the Utah Beach Museum, Normandy. Make of it what you will!

[Sabrejet]

Cont'd...

[Justin]

Photographed by me in the Utah Beach Museum, Normandy. Make of it what you will!

Looks like an ugly fake, do we still have the vomit emoji?

[Sabrejet]

General "Jumpin' Jim" Gavin's helmet.

[P-59A]

I just ran across this old thread and I'm gonna add a M1C I just picked up. It's front seam manganese rim. The chin strap is a flat buckle short strap. The heat treat reads 10-9A. I can't make out what the number between the 0 and 9 is.