US Govt Returns Saddam Hussein Ceremonial Sword to Iraq

[aef1917]

So, if we are going to argue that this is cultural, explain what makes it cultural. Art, antiquities, religious icons, even gold bars I can see, but what about this sword makes it any more cultural than a Nazi dress dagger or a Japanese Samurai sword and thus needing the protection of the Hague.

And as for the statement about us being the good guys. We were most definitely the good guys during WWII and we still cleaned Germany of many of it's "cultural" items, so do we now reclassify ourselves as the bad guys because grandpa looted about everything he could? We even have a guy in a recent post that has a letter from a guy using Hitler's personal stationary to write home on and we know the Eagles Nest was emptied fairly quickly and mailed home. I have the wedding band and a protection bracelet from a Werhmacht soldier, am I a bad person?

For any of us that have been at the mercy of the U.S. postal system or customs in Iraq, you don't just "slip" this home. I believe that whomever brought this home had approval to do so. Then some do-gooder in the HSI overreacted and blew this way out of proportion. Or, I could just be full of it.

 

Why not go to the source?

 

Definition of Cultural Property

 

Article 1. For the purposes of the present Convention, the term "cultural property" shall cover, irrespective of origin or ownership:

(a) movable or immovable property of great importance to the cultural heritage of every people, such as monuments of architecture, art or history, whether religious or secular; archaeological sites; groups of buildings which, as a whole, are of historical or artistic interest; works of art; manuscripts, books and other objects of artistic, historical or archaeological interest; as well as scientific collections and important collections of books or archives or of reproductions of the property defined above;

 

If we're willing to say that one of 23,000,000 m1 helmets is "of historical interest" when filling out customs forms to save our English bretheren from paying taxes and import duties (as we have seen here on this forum), then certainly a ceremonial sword owned by a head of state falls into the same category.

 

Since the Hague Convention under discussion here is from 1954, comparisons to what happened in WWII are immaterial.

[hawkdriver]

 

Why not go to the source?

 

Definition of Cultural Property

 

Article 1. For the purposes of the present Convention, the term "cultural property" shall cover, irrespective of origin or ownership:

(a) movable or immovable property of great importance to the cultural heritage of every people, such as monuments of architecture, art or history, whether religious or secular; archaeological sites; groups of buildings which, as a whole, are of historical or artistic interest; works of art; manuscripts, books and other objects of artistic, historical or archaeological interest; as well as scientific collections and important collections of books or archives or of reproductions of the property defined above;

 

 

That is the problem when people write overarching statements like the one above. This can literally be read that anything captured can fall under this clause and if Saddams sword falls into this, then so does the average grunts bayonet. It comes down to however the person with the power wants to take it. Still not seeing this as being anymore cultural than a banner, uniform or anything else. It wasn't cultural before HSI made it cultural.

[Jim McCauley]

Saddam's sword, cultural property. What a laugh.

 

As someone already pointed out, the sword is probably melted down for the scrap value.

[aef1917]

 

That is the problem when people write overarching statements like the one above. This can literally be read that anything captured can fall under this clause and if Saddams sword falls into this, then so does the average grunts bayonet. It comes down to however the person with the power wants to take it. Still not seeing this as being anymore cultural than a banner, uniform or anything else. It wasn't cultural before HSI made it cultural.

 

Would you say that the ceremonial sword presented to Robert E. Lee by Jefferson Davis and an ordinary CS-marked bayonet are of equal cultural and historical value?

[ajbUSWM]

I think America has changed a little since 1945. Pretty soon we will be apologizing for being America.

 

Oh wait... that just happened as well.

[doyler]

 

A very slippery slope indeed if we try to undo the the events of 70+ years ago and apply 21st Century standards. Under the principles being used by the government as far as ownership of artifacts, why couldn't they seize everything in your collection that is marked US? Heck, the government didn't give it to you and in all likelihood some GI brought home that helmet, canteen, pack, bayonet, etc. without legal permission.

 

 

 

THis has already occured here locally.We had a local Army Reserve unit return from Desert Storm.Due to one individual who was not happy as he didnt get a promotion to Staff Sgt.He contacted the state IGs office and an investigation was launched into the material brought home by the unit.They had sent home a significant amount of material.Uniforms,gear,electric appliances etc.In one conex container they stored over 200+ cots and new sleeping bags in the wrap.As stated much was sent home through the mail and other larger items were stored in the shipping containers shipped to the states after the unit left.One of the big issues was the shipping of the items by mail as the packages from in theatre were shippd "FREE"(I have seen the boxes of some of the items).

 

The unit was contacted by the IGs office and told in no certain terms if the items were not returned a search and confiscation would insue.Any items found in the searches marked US or US PROPERTY would be confiscated as it was the property of the US government.Any items with out proper paper work(what ever that would be) would be considered stolen property.Didnt matter if the M1 carbine purchased at the gunshow or the 45 auto pistol brought back from WW1 by grandpa was found.or something you bought as a kid at a garage sale or surplus store,the threat was it would be taken.Idle threat or not the unit members turned over a lot of stuff to appease the powers that be.

 

Whats really ironic is all the items they sent home were items recovered from dumpsters in Saudi Arabia.New uniforms in bundles that were to small for anyone to wear and not worth shipping home so they were ordered to throw it away.Boots in sizes 7 or 13,Boonie hats new in the wrap,new pistol holsters in the wrapping,televisions,micro waves,window air conditioners etc.All thrown away on orders.

 

Im sure the arguement could be made that the items could be contaminated etc.But if it was such a concern why wasnt the container with 200 plus cots siezed or confiscated upon return to the states??Never heard what the IGs office did with the material.

[Bob Hudson]

Saddam's sword, cultural property. What a laugh.

 

As someone already pointed out, the sword is probably melted down for the scrap value.

 

No, I think they will put it on ebay - better monitor the listings for seller IraquiSurplusGuy493

[cutiger83]

 

 

One of the big issues was the shipping of the items by mail as the packages from in theatre were shippd "FREE"(I have seen the boxes of some of the items).

 

Whats really ironic is all the items they sent home were items recovered from dumpsters in Saudi Arabia.New uniforms in bundles that were to small for anyone to wear and not worth shipping home so they were ordered to throw it away.Boots in sizes 7 or 13,Boonie hats new in the wrap,new pistol holsters in the wrapping,televisions,micro waves,window air conditioners etc.All thrown away on orders.

 

 

I think the main point here could be that the items were thrown away on orders because they were deemed not worth shipping home. However, the items were sent home free by the unit so the money that was deemed not worth spending was still spent.

[normaninvasion]

I guess one can ask "where is the line drawn?".Do we send back real cutural antiquities that reside in museums?

[hawkdriver]

 

Would you say that the ceremonial sword presented to Robert E. Lee by Jefferson Davis and an ordinary CS-marked bayonet are of equal cultural and historical value?

 

To us Americans, no, to an Iraqi on the other side of the fence, yep. It's all in the eyes of the beholder. And to the Iraqies, that sword holds no more value than the gold that can be scraped off of it. If you have ever been to Iraq and seen how much value they hold in their own antiquities, you will understand how little they really care about this sword, we are putting more value on it than they would. Wanna guess how many hundreds of thousands of dollars have been spent recovering, shipping, and presenting this useless icon to a people that suffered under Saddam?

[jgawne]

But consider this- Saddam was technically the commander in chief of his military. Although not much to us, a sword is still a weapon, thus one could make the claim that the sword was a sidearm- even if worn for looks only) of a serving officer, and if it was in fact paid for by the Iraqi people then no different than a bayonet their taxes paid for.

 

I've personally helped some ww2 vets return stuff they picked up in 1945 back to the correct owners, but this is just a 'feel good' aren't we the good guys type operation, and chances are it will either end up in a marketplace for sale, be tossed into a back room and forgotten, or turned into a memorial to the great martyr Saddam. And any good will generated by the return is worth about as much as the guy who ends up selling it to some Rich Russian as a oddity. Then that money donated to a group that ends up funding the Taliban.

[APO472]

You don't see the Germans demanding to wanting Hitler's stuff back as a "National Treasure" do you?

 

Jake Powers

 

www.heroesinourmidst.net

[Jack's Son]

You don't see the Germans demanding to wanting Hitler's stuff back as a "National Treasure" do you?

Jake Powers

www.heroesinourmidst.net

Watchout......this may tip them over the edge!!

[APO472]

I just got off the phone with a Burgermeister or Miesterburger? I am getting a letter stating his town of Schnitzelville wants ALL National treasures returned. I am picking these up starting Monday. Given the sheer numbers of WWII Veterans who hailed from Mass, I will need a wing man and someone who has a CDL.

 

Thanks!

 

Jake Powers

 

www.heroesinourmidst.net

[ScottG]

I have an avatar on another related forum with me in Iraqi using a WWII British Sterling submachine gun from WWII (1944 dated). Funny thing is I got it from the ICE guys for helping to knock on some doors... I was able to keep and use it as long as I was in country. Then they wanted it back. When I returned it I had to clean it and help wrap it and many other "historic" weapons for shipment to You guessed it! The good old US of A! They were placed in a conex and sent to Florida. Not to a museum but to an office plaza. So the whole Saddam sword thing is just b.s. Chances are the Iraqi's never even knew it was gone, at least not until some moronic do gooder from a low level government agency decided to "get recognized". Then the upstanding Iraqi attache' could step in for a moment of fame and mutual recognition. I agree that certain cultural artifacts and museums should not be looted. That being said, I bet the Berlin Museum doesn't give the original wall panels from Babylon back to the Iraqi's, they have had them since the 20s. I believe the British have a significant part of Babylon as well... Scott.

[Gregory]

 

A very slippery slope indeed if we try to undo the the events of 70+ years ago and apply 21st Century standards. Under the principles being used by the government as far as ownership of artifacts, why couldn't they seize everything in your collection that is marked US? Heck, the government didn't give it to you and in all likelihood some GI brought home that helmet, canteen, pack, bayonet, etc. without legal permission.

 

While it may not apply to the Saddam sword, Ex post facto laws are expressly forbidden by the United States Constitution: Ex post facto is a law that retroactively changes the legal consequences (or status) of actions that were committed before the enactment of the law.

 

This rifle case sounds like it could fit that, but my fear is that in the name of "diplomacy" some government agencies will throw US citizens under the bus to please other countries.

 

See: http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-06-29/local/40268849_1_rifle-world-war-ii-polish-government

 

An excerpt:

 

"Of all the weapons in his personal collection, Kristopher Gasior always cherished the wz.38M Maroszek rifle the most. The gun — one of only a handful in the world — came from Poland, his home country, and it was produced in the war that claimed his grandfather’s life.

 

But Gasior was not the only one with an interest in the military artifact. The Polish government views the Maroszek as a “great piece of cultural and scientific significance.” When Gasior, who had decided to sell most of his large collection, listed the weapon for sale on his Web site, Poland had U.S. federal agents seize it, arguing it had been stolen from the government during World War II.

 

Gasior, 54, of Fredericksburg, now finds himself at the center of an international legal battle pitting him against the European nation where he grew up."

 

Luckily, not everyone is as over-zealous as the Dept. Of Homeland Insecurity:

 

"A Homeland Security agent initially got a seizure warrant to keep the rifle, largely based on information provided by Poland. But this month, the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Eastern District of Virginia filed a complaint asking to be removed from the case, saying there was “great doubt” as to who was entitled to the weapon."

 

 

The Washington Post news of November 11, 2013

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/settlement-in-case-of-rare-polish-rifle-seized-from-virginia-gun-collector/2013/11/11/99d77bfa-48ae-11e3-a196-3544a03c2351_story.html

[Bob Hudson]

 

The Washington Post news of November 11, 2013

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/settlement-in-case-of-rare-polish-rifle-seized-from-virginia-gun-collector/2013/11/11/99d77bfa-48ae-11e3-a196-3544a03c2351_story.html

 

Thanks for the link updating this story:

 

"The collector will get $25,000 for the wz.38M Maroszek rifle, along with a promise that it will be displayed in the Warsaw Uprising Museum. The country also agreed to send Kristopher Gasior, the 54-year-old Virginia collector, a thank-you letter noting his “valuable contribution to preserving Polish historical memory and to honoring Polish heroes and freedom fighters by saving and preserving this unique rifle.”

 

[firefighter]

Please don't go political guys. I know it's a fine line but, try to keep it focused on the foolishness of the return.

 

 

I really don't know how you say, ..'don't go political..', when we all know this was political.I honestly can't think of another motive on either side.I wouldn't be surprise to hear that a lease on a base was extended thank's to the sword being returned.We, the military spill the blood, and the politicians arrange the rest.I don't usually go on like this but I think this whole thing is ridiculous. If you feel you need to delete this thats ok.

[Bob Hudson]

 

 

I really don't know how you say, ..'don't go political..', when we all know this was political.I honestly can't think of another motive on either side.I wouldn't be surprise to hear that a lease on a base was extended thank's to the sword being returned.We, the military spill the blood, and the politicians arrange the rest.I don't usually go on like this but I think this whole thing is ridiculous. If you feel you need to delete this thats ok.

 

 

When I was in politics I used to say, "Government is what we do...politics is how we do it."

 

So, you're right, it is a political move no doubt, but i think that was meant was "don't go partisan," blaming it on one party or the other (sorry Libertarians, that's the Dems and the Reps we're talkin' about...we know you didn't do it).

 

The thing I learned in politics is that that people in the 50 states think there's a big difference between Democrats and Republicans in Washington: not true. What is true is that there is a big difference between the people in Washington, regardless of party, and the rest of us. What we ask on the forum is to not try to pin down one party or the other for making the stupid decisions: there's plenty of blame to go around.

 

And remember, if all the politicians were laid end-to-end at the equator, we'd be better off

[firefighter]

 

 

When I was in politics I used to say, "Government is what we do...politics is how we do it."

 

So, you're right, it is a political move no doubt, but i think that was meant was "don't go partisan," blaming it on one party or the other (sorry Libertarians, that's the Dems and the Reps we're talkin' about...we know you didn't do it).

 

The thing I learned in politics is that that people in the 50 states think there's a big difference between Democrats and Republicans in Washington: not true. What is true is that there is a big difference between the people in Washington, regardless of party, and the rest of us. What we ask on the forum is to not try to pin down one party or the other for making the stupid decisions: there's plenty of blame to go around.

 

And remember, if all the politicians were laid end-to-end at the equator, we'd be better off

 

 

Bob, True word's have never been spoken.You are a wise man.Whats the old saying, POLI meaning people and TICS meaning blood sucking creature.

[Gumshoe]

The "Chain of Custody" for this sword will likely come to a mysterious end when it reaches the hands of a an Iraqi diplomat sufficient in rank to pull off a quick sale to some Middle Eastern potentate willing to pay his price. IMHO. But, my wife is always telling me I'm a cynic.

 

Mark

[Manchu Warrior]

So when is Mr. Snyder going to ship all of Hitler's silverware back to Germany?

[uberguido]

I am a pillage and plunder kind of guy, ESPECIALLY when the items could run the risk of being a monument, recruiting tool, idol etc etc for future generations I would think Husseins sword, most of Hitlers Items and things of that nature fit the bill, should not be displayed in their home countries, should be kept away from people who would revere them with quasi-religious fervor or destroyed entirely.

 

by doing "the right thing" a sword, a symbol of Husseins might and military power and whatever else you want to attribute to it is now free to recruit and instill fanaticism to young admirers who go to a museum to see it, IF it ever does go to a museum because much like other forum members, the first chance some fanatic gets to buy it, or put it in some Sheiks private museum, its sold and out of there.

[Gregory]

"Of all the weapons in his personal collection, Kristopher Gasior always cherished the wz.38M Maroszek rifle the most. The gun — one of only a handful in the world — came from Poland, his home country, and it was produced in the war that claimed his grandfather’s life.

 

"Came from Poland"? The US Army liberated Poland and a GI got it legally from the Polish MoD or Army as a souvenir?

 

These are Mr Gasior's absurdities and falsification of reality. Let Mr Gasior ask the Polish military historians what happened to wz. 38M rifles and what engineer Józef Maroszek did with entire batch of manufactured wz. 38Ms.

Politics does not have anything to do with this affair. It is only a matter of elementary decency.

How the Americans would feel if 99.99 percent of the Thompson SMGs were in the Polish hands for fun, for collecting, for historic exhibitions, for reenacting etc.? We do not have OUR OWN Vis wz. 35 auto pistols in our museums -- the Americans have all of our Vis wz. 35s for fun, for gun shows. for reenacting, for private collections, for museums etc. Is it normal?

[uberguido]

there are no captured items in polish hands? not one item? Im not going to get on your case because I understand both sides of the story, but as devils advocate, how much of the issue is expressed impartially and how much of it is showing national pride?

 

I am an American living in Canada for a few more months before we go back home. almost every township has a 1812 collection over here, full of items from the war, many of them are named and can easily be considered treasures, whether they were pilfered from NY state, off of cargo ships or surrendered on the battlefields. I live 23 miles from Sacketts Harbor NY, and they would be really easy to return to the other side of the border, and though I go and look at the items you wont hear me complain about it because HOW they got here is just as much a part of the history.