Jump to content

Help Identifying a medal in this image


Recommended Posts

My good friend who is a retired Marine 1st Sgt. whom I had the honor of serving with sent me this photo to try and help ID the medal on the right. They are certainly not clear enough for me to see much. Obviously he's a 27th Division soldier and given their Pacific service it looks to me that the medal on the left is a PTO medal even though dark it clearly has the multi-colored stripes you see. The light plays on it in a way that makes it seem much darker, but close look convinces me its the PTO, but I cannot make out the medal on the right. It almost looks like a China Service but did the 27th rate this? This is some relative of his and I would like to help him out as he's a great guy with service in Iraq including the 1st engagement at Fallujah.

Semper Fi

post-2182-0-89757500-1374890708.jpg

donation2012.gif


Always looking for quality WWI and WWII USMC items. Particularly 4th Marine Brigade related items, medals, uniforms helmets ephemera, Also WWII USMC items including uniforms, medals, etc. to combat veterans especially Guadalcanal, Tarawa, Iwo Jima. Let me know what you have. Semper Fi


Link to post
Share on other sites
RustyCanteen

That's a pre WWII uniform (it actually looks like a modified WWI uniform), but I'm not sure when it could have been taken. The 27th was mustered out post WWI, but wasn't re-activated until 1940 that I could find.

 

It will be interesting to find out the full story.

 

RC

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

*Sherlock Holmes in "A Scandal in Bohemia"*

donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gif
donation2016.gifdonation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm no expert ... but I tend to agree with RC. Uniform, and division patch look to be pre-WWII. Medals may be state-issued ... or maybe shooting / competition medals (I've seen that often on pre-war uniforms). Doubt if they are WWI service-related due to rank.

 

Just an opinion ... Thanks ... Tim

donation2009.gif

donation2010.gifdonation2011.gifdonation2012.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites

I am by no means an authority on medals but I am just trying to help. I have been looking thru a book to see if any look like this medal. This is just a guess but could it be the Mexican Service Medal - Army? From the picture I have, the ribbon on the medal has a blue stripe down the middle. The outside edge of the ribbon is light green. I can't tell if the ribbon in this picture you posted has a different color on the edge of the ribbon. I also can't tell if the stripe down the middle is thinner in your picture.

 

Is the ribbon all one color with a stripe down the middle?

 

...Kat

spacer.png

spacer.pngspacer.pngspacer.png

spacer.pngspacer.pngspacer.pngspacer.png

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah but the Orion Division was a active National Guard Division of the New York National Guard, it was federalized in 1940, I bet these Medals are NYNG related, a PVT post 1926 with a cut down modified WWI coat as rusty alluded too. The DI looks like this one.

post-34986-0-65352600-1374964409.jpg

 

Now the above is the original unit crest for the 14th New York Infantry, the 14th Brooklyn, this unit retained it's state number post WWI till it was federalized in 1940, then it was broken up, it was no longer an Infantry unit, it's main elements became the 187th Field Artillery Battalion. The question is, if this indeed is a National Guardsman of the 14th Brooklyn, when did the 14th Brooklyn serve as part of the 27th Division? the units history makes no mention of service with this Division

Link to post
Share on other sites

My good friend who is a retired Marine 1st Sgt. whom I had the honor of serving with sent me this photo to try and help ID the medal on the right. They are certainly not clear enough for me to see much. Obviously he's a 27th Division soldier and given their Pacific service it looks to me that the medal on the left is a PTO medal even though dark it clearly has the multi-colored stripes you see. The light plays on it in a way that makes it seem much darker, but close look convinces me its the PTO, but I cannot make out the medal on the right. It almost looks like a China Service but did the 27th rate this? This is some relative of his and I would like to help him out as he's a great guy with service in Iraq including the 1st engagement at Fallujah.

Semper Fi

IF you know the mans Name, try this http://dmna.ny.gov/historic/reghist/wwii/infantry/27thInfDiv/27thInfDivFed/27thInfDiv_Fed.htm its the record of all NY ARNG men federalized in 1940

Link to post
Share on other sites

This is not a WWII era photo, it is a late 20s into the 30s one, note even the wear of collar discs on the collars of his shirt.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I starting to wonder if that first medal with the solid color ribbon is a early version of the NYNG Medal of Valor, the medal first came out in 1894, and was awarded for the very first time years later.

http://militarywired.com/library/en/New-York-National-Guard-Medal-of-Valor

 

 

 

post-34986-0-89493000-1374967449.jpg

 

This medal may have started out not as a neck award, but as a standard type, though so far I can't seem to make any head way in finding out.

Link to post
Share on other sites

How about the New York Recruiting Medal (the distinct stripes falling prey to film color shifts) and the Medal for State Service During the World War (Aqueduct Medal). The Aqueduct Medal was created in 1920.

Jeff Floyd

The universe is made up of neutrons, protons, electrons and morons

donation2007.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gif

donation2011.gifdonation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif

 

donation2017.gif

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

How about the New York Recruiting Medal (the distinct stripes falling prey to film color shifts) and the Medal for State Service During the World War (Aqueduct Medal). The Aqueduct Medal was created in 1920.

If your taking about the right one, on our right, it is a possibility, the medal was given to guys who Brought their friends or neighbors in, or any intersted strangers. One didn't have to be an actual Recruiting Sergeant, as far as a WW vet, I would say no, not that he's a Private, there were loads of Slick Sleeve Privates that were WW vets serving for years after the WW ended in both the Regulars and the National Guard and Reserve, it's that we see no Victory Medal, or ribbon for it, even if he never went over there with the AEF and stayed in the States he would be intitled the the WW Victory Medal.

 

post-34986-0-72690500-1375037883.gif

 

RECRUITING MEDAL

 

To whom awarded. The Recruiting Medal may be awarded to any member of the New York State Organized Militia who obtains three new members for any unit of the organized militia.

Requests will be prepared using DMNA Form 106D-R

Standards. New members are defined as initial appointments for officers/warrant officers and initial enlistments for enlisted personnel into the New York State Organized Militia. Individuals appointed from enlisted status (graduates of Officer Candidate School) in the organized militia are not considered new members. If an individual separates from the New York State Organized Militia and later returns to the New York State Organized Militia, the recruiter can be credited with a new member.

How awarded. Commanders will certify and forward DMNA Form 106D through command channels to each respective major component awards area of responsibility (see Figure 2-10, sample DMNA Form 106D-R. DMNA Reg 672-1)

Succeeding awards. When the holder of a Recruiting Medal obtains two additional new members, a device for attachment to the service ribbon bearing the inscription "5 RECRUITS" will be awarded. An additional bar will be awarded for each five additional new members obtained until twenty-five new members have been recruited. Each device will bear the respective totals of " 10", "l5", "20", and "25 RECRUITS."

Link to post
Share on other sites

Great stuff guys all very insightful I'll pass this on and see if I can't get more info on this man from 1sgt Davis. I thought the wool of that uniform looked a bit heavy/coarse for a WWII uniform but since they were deactivated in April of 1919 and not reactivated until late 1940 I figured it was likely a WWII era shot but all the details pointed out make sense. I'm also convinced that the medal on the right is the NY recruiting medal after Jeff pointing that out. Thanks again guys.

Semper Fi

donation2012.gif


Always looking for quality WWI and WWII USMC items. Particularly 4th Marine Brigade related items, medals, uniforms helmets ephemera, Also WWII USMC items including uniforms, medals, etc. to combat veterans especially Guadalcanal, Tarawa, Iwo Jima. Let me know what you have. Semper Fi


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, lets wait a Minute. IIRC the open collar tunic did not come about until 1928 so this is not a 1919 timeframe picture. Also the brass would all be blackened then. Between the wars the 27th Patch didn't exist but there was a version in the same colors with a NY rather than the Orion stars and New York Division logo. I've seen pictures of NY guardsmen in putties in 1940. try looking at shi 27th division yearbook from early 1941. http://dmna.ny.gov/historic/reghist/wwii/infantry/27thInfDiv/Pictorial_History_27th_Division_1940-41.pdf

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The 27th Division was an active drilling National Guard Division in the 1920s and 1930s, with elements in upstate NY and in NYC, it was FEDERALIZED with NYNG units in 1917 and designated as the 27th Division, after the Great War, it was released from Federal service and demobilized in 1919. It was reconstituted in the New York National Guard in what? sometime in 1921 or was it sometime in 1922, that 1940 date was when it was FEDERALIZED again in 1940 along with all the rest of the National Guard divisions and separate Regiments, battalions and or Companies, meaning it was released from State control and became part of the Army of the United States.

 

This guy in this photo is a post 1926 late1920s early 1930, most likey late 20s NYNG Pvt, I suspect he is of the 14th New York Infantry Regiment, the 14th Brooklyn, as that Unit Crest looks like the old 14th NY Inf. The 27th Division patch WAS worn in the 1920s and 1930s, but not sure why this the 27th Div patch is worn by this Pvt, as the 14th NY Inf was from what I see a Separate Regiment not under the command of the 27th Div. My only guess is that the Separate Infantry Regiments, the 10th and 14th New York fell under the nominal command of the 27th Division, maybe even the all Black 369th Infantry in Harlem during the interwar years.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, lets wait a Minute. IIRC the open collar tunic did not come about until 1928 so this is not a 1919 timeframe picture. Also the brass would all be blackened then. Between the wars the 27th Patch didn't exist but there was a version in the same colors with a NY rather than the Orion stars and New York Division logo. I've seen pictures of NY guardsmen in putties in 1940. try looking at shi 27th division yearbook from early 1941. http://dmna.ny.gov/historic/reghist/wwii/infantry/27thInfDiv/Pictorial_History_27th_Division_1940-41.pdf

 

Linedoggie, Orion was indeed worn, besides the photo of this late-ish 20s Pvt, I seen at least one more photo of the 27th Div patch being worn, it's in the Keller book, the standard design 27th Div patch being worn on a 105th Inf Regt NCO of the late 1920s early 1930s, the 105th Inf which was up in Troy. That patch I believe your referring to is the WWII era New York State Guard patch, in Black on Blue, with a varient of Blue on OD, maybe there was also a Red on Black version, but I,m not sure, would you have a photo of said patch?

post-34986-0-57083100-1375073733.jpgpost-34986-0-83462500-1375073744.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Though this doesn't difinitively IDed the medals this Soldier is wearing, it does provide information as to when's and what's about this Soldier in the photo. He will be one of the 14th New York, circa 1926-1927, below explains why we're seeing a 27th Div patch, when this unit the 14th NY was not assigned to this Div.

 

HISTORY 14th INFANTRY, NEW YORK NATIONAL GUARD

Arrived at the port of New York on 4 July 1919 on the U.S.S. Lancaster as the 2d Pioneer Inf. Demobilized 1 April 1919 at Camp Upton, NY. Demobilized 2 November 1919 at Camp Dix, NJ. Reorganized 22 March–1 November 1921 as the 14th Inf., New York N.G. Regimental HQ organized 12 January 1923 at Brooklyn, NY; HQ federally recognized 30 March 1923 at Brooklyn. Attached to the 53d Inf. Brig. on 15 September 1923 for command, control, and administration. Relieved from attachment to the 53d Inf. Brig. on 27 February 1927 and assigned to the 93d Inf. Brig. Conducted additional week-long winter training directed by the War Department at Camp Upton, NY, 26–31 December 1939. Relieved 1 June 1940 from the 93d Inf. Brig. Conducted annual summer training most years at Camp Smith, Peekskill, NY, 1923–39. Converted and redesignated 187th F.A. on 16 September 1940.

 

HISTORY 93rd INFANTRY BRIGADE

HHC, 93d Infantry Brigade (Separate) New York National Guard
HQ—New York City, NY, 1926–40
Subordinate elements—10th New York Inf. Regt., 1927–40; 14th New York Inf. Regt., 1927–40; 71st Inf. Regt.,
1926–27; 165th Inf. Regt., 1927–40; 369th Inf. Regt., 1927–40
Constituted in the N.G. in April 1926 and allotted to New York. HQ organized 10 May 1926
at New York City, NY. HQ federally recognized on 26 January 1927. HQ Co. organized
and federally recognized 2 April 1928 at New York City. Assigned to the First Army on 1
October 1933. Conducted annual summer training most years at Camp Smith, Peekskill,
NY, 1927–39. Reorganized and redesignated HHB, 71st F.A. Brig. on 1 September 1940.

 

 

My Commentary continued:

As we see, the 14th NY (14th Brooklyn) was for a period of 3 years and 5 months attached to the 27th Div's 53rd Inf Bde for command, control and administrative purposes, thus the wear of the Orion Division shoulder patch, the uniform being a tailored up choker collar, dates this photo some time after the new open collar coat was adopted, but not after February 1927, which at time the 14th NY was assigned permanently to the 93rd Inf Bde.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 years later...
mars&thunder

Not sure why I ended up looking at this post, but the two medals are both NYNG medals. The one with many stripes has already been correctly identified as the NYNG recruiting medal. The other is the Field Training Athletic Meet medal. Some have thought it might be the Aqueduct medal but on close examination the planchet has 2 people standing (one to left, one to right) - the aqueduct has a single soldier in the center. Since the medal is the Athletic medal, it somewhat helps to date the picture as it was awarded only in 1928 - 1930. It was purchased out of funds for athletics and came in bronze, silver, and gold. I am not sure it was officially sanctioned for wear on the uniform - this is the only picture I have seen with someone wearing one but honestly I have no idea.

donation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gif


donation2011.gifdonation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2019.gif


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.