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IRAK 2003-2004 Delta + SAS


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flashesandovals

Interesting.

I think part of the backlash to this kind of reenacting comes from the fact that you are portraying the high speed SF units doing sexy hostage missions. To me reeks of "playing war" like kids at fantasy camp rather than "honoring" or "preserving" the past as many reenactors strive to do. Perhaps some of your members are veterans as you seem to have a lot of gear but it looks more like someone's idea of what Iraq is/was rather than that of someone who has been there. Because of this, I think a lot of GWOT vets will take a negative view on this as so few of our peers are actually willing to serve but want the glory and Call of Duty stuff.

Are you vets?

Also, you use an interesting spelling for Iraq/Irak and Korea/Corea---Are you Americans? I ask because that might change peoples perception on your service.

The "captured LAWs" give it away. These are Belgian as they are marked "GEVAAR - DANGER" both in Dutch and French.

So, as I cannot imagine that these tubes left the European continent, let only be that they entered th US, these pictures were taken in Europe or may be even in Belgium.

 

Pascal

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Bumper_Morgan

Nicely done.

Don't get discouraged.

Having served, I feel qualified to say that you are enjoying the freedom we have and now others are fighting to protect.

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As one of the photographers on this shoot, I understand and, at the same time do not understand the negative reactions.

 

Most people pictured on this pics are airsofters, with a few collectors in the mix. Their main field of interest is the Delta Force of the early 2000s, with near impossible-to-find gear, and very specific setups. After years of research they decided to team up and try to create realistic impressions. Original photos of the real Delta Force are very scarce, and this work provides documentation for collectors who might want to start in this field. This is an instant account of what was worn by a very small group 10 years ago, nothing more. Posting the pics without any explanations, as is usually done on airsoft forums, can be disturbing for real vets, I will give you that.

 

"Why don't you join and do this for real?" Well most participant were in their late twenties, too late for this, and all are French. Portraying a US unit is something seen as exotic here, like the FFL for Americans. So the question is not really relevant.

 

"This war is still going on": as far as Americans are concerned, the war in Iraq is over. Fresh memories indeed, but it is over. The GWOT concept is a nice rhetorical concept, but implying that the war in Iraq is still going on because NATO is still involved in Afghanistan is quite a bit of a stretch.

 

"Too soon": I am the one who advised them to post their pics here, but it was probably a mistake. "Too soon" is an interesting question indeed. Where do you put the line then? Kosovo 1999? Haiti 1995? Somalia 1993? Desert Storm 1991? Panama 1989? Impressions of Desert Storm and Panama have been posted here and did not raise an eyebrow.

There was even a popular thread asking for Woodland reenactors: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/142635-woodland-reenacters/

The photos shown above are a DCU reenactment and they take flak. Why?

Msgt Norway always posts nice, but very recent impressions, like here: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/171011-usmc-in-norway-2012marpat-snow/

.. and he gets only positive comments. So is "too soon" really an issue?

 

I think the real problem here, and what makes forum members uneasy, is the "realistic" angle, whereas the participants are not real operators. I would see this shoot as an amateur version of Zero Dark Thirty or The Hurt Locker. I think (I may be wrong) that these movies were universally acclaimed, and none questioned the fact that the actors were not real veterans, as this would be have been pointless for a fiction work. IMHO, same case here. It is a fiction scenario based on a specific historic time frame, nothing more. I can understand that the dead hostage pics are not in very good taste, but I think it was interesting to show a bit more than nice gear.

 

As for myself, I quit Vietnam reenactment a few years ago, and am not interested in doing that anymore, for a number of reasons. But when I was asked to photograph this event I was really curious to find out what it would look like. This guys have made incredible efforts on gear and sets (look at these rooms!). So, although I can perfectly understand how it makes veterans uneasy, try to put these feelings aside for a minute and look at these pics from an artistic point of view. I think they look great (but my opinion is clearly biased :) )

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I have several friends that reenact in Europe that are from Europe and they see it as honoring our US Soldiers because of the fact that they cannot join/serve, and several of them have tried enlisting but were turned away because they were not US Citizens or had a green card. Is it actually honoring US soldiers? is any reenacting from any period actually honoring anyone? or is it just grown men with money playing army in their back yards like a lot of us did when we were kids?

 

To soon? maybe, but I often wonder if for the WWI veteran that fought at the Somme or that WWII veteran that landed on D-day was that event ever not too soon?

 

In my humble opinion this is no more stolen valor than me owning WWII Ike jackets with valorous awards on the coat (which I own several), In my view when this becomes stolen valor is when these guys start claiming they are Delta Operators, and try to profit from that. or in my case, I start claiming its my valorous award on my Ike Jacket.

 

As a veteran myself, I happen to agree that if you are a US citizen/eligible for service and of military age are not actively serving or have served, and are reenacting current operations (to include airsoft) then take that stuff off and go to your local recruiting station, sign up and do your part. I started re-enacting when I was 14 years old, part of the reason I joined up when I was of age was because I felt I would be a hypocrite by not serving when it was my time, just like the guys I portrayed did when it was theirs.

 

Just my two cents,

Ryan

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Hi,

 

I agree with both the 'too soon' and 'stolen valour' remarks in these cases, I have an interest in, and collect various current mil items; but that said, I would look at dressing up in current gear and running around pretending to be very different to dressing a mannequin for displaying the items I collect......... I put on a 1970s RAF flying suit and helmet once but I felt silly, like I was pretending to be someone/something that I was not and had not earned the right to wear that gear.

 

I don't think the same as WW2/Korean War re-enacting, most vets I've met are happy, even proud that people are interested and remember their deeds........... now is not too soon for them.

 

This is just my 5 cents, each to his own.........

 

-John

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THANK YOU, for those that are attempting to Honor our Warriors. I believe that your heart and intent are in the right place.

 

Solid job in portraying Warriors in a difficult situation. When I come home from work I really like to take my uniform off. I have a few Old Uniforms in my collection (Ones that weren't issued to me), and I don't wear them. I was never a rein-actor and don't intend to be, but to each his own.....So although I don't do what these guys do, they are preserving history even though it is very recent history. They are doing it their way and in a way that does not bring discredit to our modern day warriors.........SO, thanks for the hard work you put into the authenticity of your hobby.

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Thanks guys for all your comments. Neg or pos. we really think that this kind of debate is really something interesting for the meaning of what we want to show and see in our hobby. I guarantee you that we don't pretend to be any of those great warriors that we are trying to depict in these photos. We only try to play a role, like actors.

Yes we are french and we try hard to make these not only a simple hobby (I mean collecting nice gear), but more of an attempt for honoring US warriors from the Unit. We choose this way because we though that it can be great to make a step forward, and make all these collectibles (believe me, they are...) gears in a true scenery that make an illusion of a realistic look.

So we try to recreate the feeling of this kind of operation that this particular unit was doing during these years; the best way we can.

But I think we should have put a text to explain our motivations. Sorry if anyone here feels offended because that was not our intention. In contrary like Fly USMC says it was only an attempt for honoring US warriors.

 

EDIT: personally I think that it's never to soon to honor warriors that risk their lives everyday, making their job.

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Very interesting series of photos to say in the least. One of my big beefs here is that the US flag is being used as a prop to cover rescued "hostages". This in my estimation is extremely disrespectful. Whether Delta used flags like these draped over rescued hostages is really not the point here. If Delta did use them, that is their right. They have bled, sweated, suffered, sacrificed, and sometimes even died for that right.

 

US Flag Code link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code While I know Wiki isn't a scholarly source by any means, I chose this link as it is the most concise and easiest to understand.

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Very interesting series of photos to say in the least. One of my big beefs here is that the US flag is being used as a prop to cover rescued "hostages". This in my estimation is extremely disrespectful. Whether Delta used flags like these draped over rescued hostages is really not the point here. If Delta did use them, that is their right. They have bled, sweated, suffered, sacrificed, and sometimes even died for that right.

 

US Flag Code link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code While I know Wiki isn't a scholarly source by any means, I chose this link as it is the most concise and easiest to understand.

Thanks, Yes for one mission for sure, they use it like that. We have a debate here trying to understand why and also if we can do the same. We think that they might use it to ID friendlies ( we seen on some pictures that US flags are attached to their gear, so for that purpose may be). We want to be realistic, but it was hard for us to debate if it was good or bad as a symbol. So I can understand your fellings about it, because we are talking about the great symbol of your nation here. We tried to think if someone do the same with our flag, how do we feel about it? and we don't really feel offended, but that's different view: because here in Europe people use to cover themselves with their national flag to support their nation, and I guess in the US may be people do that too. So we choose not to judge that, and reproduce what we see. May be it was a bad idea...

 

EDIT: If you feel that it's disrespectful: we can remove the pictures of course.

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Now that you mention it, I do remember seeing sports fans in Europe using flags like you said. Very interesting. Perhaps this is a case of differences in cultures when it comes to flag etiquette.

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Now that you mention it, I do remember seeing sports fans in Europe using flags like you said. Very interesting. Perhaps this is a case of differences in cultures when it comes to flag etiquette.

Yes, you're right you can see that very often here during sports events, but even during the national day. But we do understand and realise how sensitive it can be so, we can remove some pictures if it's necessary.

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Such a shame nobody could comment on the quality and authenticity of the shots instead of editorial comments about joining the military instead. I did Vietnam reenacting in the 80s and got so many comments that it was too soon, I got sick of it all and gave up, never went back to that.

As for the photos, I am impressed with the scope of them. One thing I noticed in the reenlistment shot, both of them would normally have their right hands up.

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CHASEUSA11B

There are a lot of comments here I would like to address and things I would like to express but at the end of the day no one cares.

One thing I would like to mention is that anytime I see foreigners (especially in this forum) expressing a positive opinion of the US it makes me happy. There is so much anti-American sentiment in the world it's nice to see the other side.

I'm personally not a big fan of this type of reenactment but hey, whatever makes you happy.

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Bumper_Morgan

Are you guys going to be at Ursel Wings & Wheels, Belgium in August?

It would be a great opportunity to meet up.

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So what you're getting at is that it is 100% ok for me to do an impression of Drummer Lee Rigby to honor his memory? I'm not British so it must be ok.

 

 

...

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Forum Manager

So what you're getting at is that it is 100% ok for me to do an impression of Drummer Lee Rigby to honor his memory? I'm not British so it must be ok.

 

 

...

If that is an impression you want to do, do it.

It has been stated many times on this forum that there will be no personal attacks on other members, and there are some on here that are getting close.

In my personal opinion, if you don't like the impression they are doing, don't comment on it, and don't look at the thread. I personally don't agree with some of the reenactment units that do WWII German SS units. Is there anything I can do about it? No, there isn't. So I just don't look at their groups or make comments about them. To each is own is my opinion. By the way, I am not comparing the above impressions to a SS unit, just want to make that clear.

Am I the only one who noticed, this isn't a American only impression? There are also British troops represented.

The photo shoot was done very well, and a lot of time was spent on setting it up properly. I think it looks great.

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SergeantMajorGray

I didn't pay attention that this was in the reenacting section and I thought the pictures were real until the hostage rescue part. I am not a vet but I can see how some vets might not like this. I don't think some people realize your portraying events that happened 10 years ago. One thing I noticed is you guys have a bit too many flags mounted on your gear everything else looks good though.

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I didn't pay attention that this was in the reenacting section and I thought the pictures were real until the hostage rescue part. I am not a vet but I can see how some vets might not like this. I don't think some people realize your portraying events that happened 10 years ago. One thing I noticed is you guys have a bit too many flags mounted on your gear everything else looks good though.

Thanks for your comment. Can you please develop when you say that you can see how vets might not like this? I don't really understand how: you mean because the event are too close to them on the time frame?

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SergeantMajorGray

Thanks for your comment. Can you please develop when you say that you can see how vets might not like this? I don't really understand how: you mean because the event are too close to them on the time frame?

Honestly I don't really know why it would offend anybody that's not in Delta or the SAS.

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kriegsmodell

Thanks, Yes for one mission for sure, they use it like that. We have a debate here trying to understand why and also if we can do the same. We think that they might use it to ID friendlies ( we seen on some pictures that US flags are attached to their gear, so for that purpose may be). We want to be realistic, but it was hard for us to debate if it was good or bad as a symbol. So I can understand your fellings about it, because we are talking about the great symbol of your nation here. We tried to think if someone do the same with our flag, how do we feel about it? and we don't really feel offended, but that's different view: because here in Europe people use to cover themselves with their national flag to support their nation, and I guess in the US may be people do that too. So we choose not to judge that, and reproduce what we see. May be it was a bad idea...

 

EDIT: If you feel that it's disrespectful: we can remove the pictures of course.

I have no problem with a CAG operator or any other US soldier wearing/cloaking himself or utilizing the US flag in any manner that is mission enhansing or otherwise required. I don't feel that way about athletes, musicians, and their fans doing the same. My thoughts only .......

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kriegsmodell

As one of the photographers on this shoot, I understand and, at the same time do not understand the negative reactions.

 

"This war is still going on": as far as Americans are concerned, the war in Iraq is over. Fresh memories indeed, but it is over. The GWOT concept is a nice rhetorical concept, but implying that the war in Iraq is still going on because NATO is still involved in Afghanistan is quite a bit of a stretch.

Your statement above Sir is grossly inaccurate. American soldiers and allied forces are currently deployed in numerous locations as part of and/or in support of the GWOT. Not merely Afghanistan. I am not going to delve into any OPSEC or PERSEC matters but the Philippine Islands and Northeast Africa are just a couple of areas that come to mind. And there are still forces in Iraq as well. Is the war there over? Perhaps or at least in part. Are there still Americans deployed there in harms way? Certainly, and that will continue. My thoughts only .....

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Your statement above Sir is grossly inaccurate. American soldiers and allied forces are currently deployed in numerous locations as part of and/or in support of the GWOT. Not merely Afghanistan. I am not going to delve into any OPSEC or PERSEC matters but the Philippine Islands and Northeast Africa are just a couple of areas that come to mind. And there are still forces in Iraq as well. Is the war there over? Perhaps or at least in part. Are there still Americans deployed there in harms way? Certainly, and that will continue. My thoughts only .....

100% agree

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