$1100 rating badge

[unclegrumpy]

I'd like to get some good numbers on how many Apothecaries were actually enlisted, but I haven't been able to find anything yet.

 

Justin B.

 

Bill Emerson, in his landmark book "Chevrons", was able to shed some light on the numbers for many similar Army ranks, rates, and specialties from this time period. The Coast Artillery, for example, like the Navy, had many highly skilled job specific positions to fill.

 

One of the interesting things Bill was able to uncover, were the numbers were not so much based on enlistments or need, but rather positions allocated and set because of budgetary concerns. Both services were small and strapped for funds, and limited in how many of the higher paid slots they could afford to fill. With the Army, Bill was able to find the numbers in the annual budgets, and that probably would be the place to start for the Navy as well.

 

What becomes very interesting collecting wise, is many of these insignia represent positions that maybe only 10 were allocated for in any given year. And factoring in that there might have been a low turn over in personnel over the life span of a given insignia type, makes some of these exceedingly rare.

 

I suppose one also has to factor in procurement, but since most of these insignia were handmade rather than mass produced, I doubt huge numbers were ever made. However, I think sufficient numbers in excess of need were ordered, otherwise we would be seeing far fewer examples today. If you think about it, almost everything that has survived is unissued, the rarer pieces are used, and the really rare stuff is on uniforms.

[subsystem4]

I am freakin amazed at A) some of the stuff you guys aquire, and the information some of you guys have.

-Jay

[zljones]

Some good info again, and this one I am getting is probably one of the overstock due to it being uncut. I could only imagine how much a piece like this would go for if there was a larger market for rates. The one that sold on Ebay on 4-18-09, the same one on Dan's site, was probably definatley from a uniform.

[unclegrumpy]

The one that sold on Ebay on 4-18-09, the same one on Dan's site, was probably definatley from a uniform.

 

I am not familiar with that one.

 

However, because many of these rates....along with cap tallys, and much of the Army sew on insignia they had in stock, were such poor sellers, Bannermans had them sewn together onto souvenir items like pillow covers and wall banners. I have had a few of these, and taken apart a couple as well. The insignia that comes off them looks used, but it really is not.

 

I am not saying the piece you mention was not off a uniform, but I think one needs to factor in where most of what we see today comes from.

 

Here is an example of a Bannermans pillow cover with Army insignia I found on the Forum:

 

[zljones]

This is a cool item, especially since I appreciate the beauty of U.S. Army chevrons, and had thought about collecting those in the past. How long ago were they selling rates for .25 cents?

[Justin B.]

 

Bill Emerson, in his landmark book "Chevrons", was able to shed some light on the numbers for many similar Army ranks, rates, and specialties from this time period. The Coast Artillery, for example, like the Navy, had many highly skilled job specific positions to fill.

 

One of the interesting things Bill was able to uncover, were the numbers were not so much based on enlistments or need, but rather positions allocated and set because of budgetary concerns. Both services were small and strapped for funds, and limited in how many of the higher paid slots they could afford to fill. With the Army, Bill was able to find the numbers in the annual budgets, and that probably would be the place to start for the Navy as well.

 

Good point. The "Old Navy" has additional difficulty because for a long time enlisted personnel were managed at the ship level and ships' record books were not compiled in any centralized way. It was only in 1889 that enlisted personnel were transferred from the Bureau of Equipment to the Bureau of Navigation (later Bureau of Personnel). In the 1890s, though, with the move to centralize and systematize navy enlisted training and education for the more mechanized and technical service, I'm sure there are records somewhere for the fairly senior positions like apothecary. I think I'll try Bureau of Medicine and Surgery records when I get back to a big library.

 

Justin B.

[unclegrumpy]

This is a cool item, especially since I appreciate the beauty of U.S. Army chevrons, and had thought about collecting those in the past. How long ago were they selling rates for .25 cents?

 

Maybe my feeble brain was failing me....they were 50 cents in 1927....but I am sure cheaper in an earlier catalog....I have one, just not sure where it is at the moment.

 

[zljones]

Now this probably explains the rarity more of especially the leaning crow 1897 Ureg style. This place may have scooped the vast majority up and sold them off as pillow fabric, then the buyers either took the rates apart an used the different parts for different things, or made a pillow like you showed, but they were eventually worn out to death years later and tossed in the trash. In my opinion this is a breakthrough for an explanation of why this stuff is so rare. I wish I had a time machine, I would buy their whole stock!

[unclegrumpy]

The 1927 Bannermans catalog has been reprinted, and copies are around for $10 to $20....you should get one.

 

Bannerman was the nations first surplus dealer, and pretty much bought everything with little or no competition until about WW I. It is pretty interesting to see what they had for sale, much of it is still around today.

 

One thing to factor in, is 50 cents was a lot of money then. It was also a lot compared to other "cool" things in the catalog like knives, guns, uniforms, and other goodies that were sometimes more than 50 cents, but not always a lot more. I think in the day, customers for these rates were pretty rare.

 

I also think part of Bannermans pricing strategy was based on the quantities they had. Some of the Army insignia I know they had mounds of, but I just don't think it was the case with these early Navy rates. I have seen very few of them used on pillows, and one on a ladies jumper from the 1920's.

[Sabrejet]

Over-rated!

[zljones]

The 1927 Bannermans catalog has been reprinted, and copies are around for $10 to $20....you should get one.

 

Bannerman was the nations first surplus dealer, and pretty much bought everything with little or no competition until about WW I. It is pretty interesting to see what they had for sale, much of it is still around today.

 

One thing to factor in, is 50 cents was a lot of money then. It was also a lot compared to other "cool" things in the catalog like knives, guns, uniforms, and other goodies that were sometimes more than 50 cents, but not always a lot more. I think in the day, customers for these rates were pretty rare.

 

I also think part of Bannermans pricing strategy was based on the quantities they had. Some of the Army insignia I know they had mounds of, but I just don't think it was the case with these early Navy rates. I have seen very few of them used on pillows, and one on a ladies jumper from the 1920's.

Yup $6.47 is what .50 cents was back then, still I would love to pay $6 and some change for some of those, but back then it was probably a lot for something like that since no one seemed to collect anything back then, and if they did they did not want to spend anything on the items.

[unclegrumpy]

I am not going to argue your math, but I don't think it is that simple. A 1927 Model T for example was $380, a loaf of bread 10 cents, and the average hourly wage was about 60 cents. But even at 100 times the price, there were some damn good deals.

 

Now I will admit that I too have occasionally obsessed about going back in time and placing an order. Or better yet, making a trip to their Store in NYC and making some personal selections.

[zljones]

I got the math from an inflation calculator website, I love playing with those things some times.

 

If I was back then I would get one of each item, I would not get any duplicates or else they would no longer be scarce

[unclegrumpy]

 

Good point. The "Old Navy" has additional difficulty because for a long time enlisted personnel were managed at the ship level and ships' record books were not compiled in any centralized way. It was only in 1889 that enlisted personnel were transferred from the Bureau of Equipment to the Bureau of Navigation (later Bureau of Personnel). In the 1890s, though, with the move to centralize and systematize navy enlisted training and education for the more mechanized and technical service, I'm sure there are records somewhere for the fairly senior positions like apothecary. I think I'll try Bureau of Medicine and Surgery records when I get back to a big library.

 

Justin B.

 

While not a substitute for pouring over dusty old volumes at the Navy Yard, both of these books are well written, and give first hand accounts of two Yeomen's up and down careers during this time period. The first one is a must read....actually both probably are.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Bluejacket-Autobiography-Classics-Naval-Literature/dp/0870211900/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

http://www.amazon.com/Mountain-Sailor-Roosevelts-History-Warfare/dp/0813329442/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1374632420&sr=1-5&keywords=teddy+roosevelts+navy

[zljones]

^{Neat, I may have to check into those some time, even though I am not big on reading}

[ajbUSWM]

Amazing prices! Who knew?

[unclegrumpy]

^{Neat, I may have to check into those some time, even though I am not big on reading}

 

Get this one, you will find it easy to read, and hard to put down:

 

http://www.amazon.co..._pr_product_top

[jerseygary]

I agree, that was a great book, read it 20-something years ago, might have to read it again!

[zljones]

 

Get this one, you will find it easy to read, and hard to put down:

 

http://www.amazon.co..._pr_product_top

I may have to check that out

[Garth Thompson]

We have a new record $1302.87

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/350851846236?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

[zljones]

And for the same thing! I feel even better about paying $1100 for mine!

[unclegrumpy]

Damn, you did get a bargain!

 

Have you nailed any goodies out of this treasure trove???

[SPAN-AM USN]

This is really ashame. Once again this great hobby is fastly slipping away into a damn business and to few who are caught up into a 'dueling meat sabre' contest. US NAVY patches and rates are sky rocketing in price just like the WW2 German crap. Shilling is alive and well, in my opinion, on e bay.

Example: I bought, on e bay in Feb., a CPO's rating Machinist Mate 1903 pattern, red on white, and the blue on white. Both for $75.00, after he re-listed again. This last auction, same 1903 patterned rate and rank, sold for over 300.00. So in 6 1/2 months it jumped in value? I call 'Shenanigan'! It's like Gold! God Bless the Woman selling them, she probably had know idea. Unbelievable.

[zljones]

Damn, you did get a bargain!

 

Have you nailed any goodies out of this treasure trove???

Yup I sure did, I will be posting soon, luckily I did not get bid up too badly by some of the crazed ones

[zljones]

This is really ashame. Once again this great hobby is fastly slipping away into a damn business and to few who are caught up into a 'dueling meat sabre' contest. US NAVY patches and rates are sky rocketing in price just like the WW2 German crap. Shilling is alive and well, in my opinion, on e bay.

Example: I bought, on e bay in Feb., a CPO's rating Machinist Mate 1903 pattern, red on white, and the blue on white. Both for $75.00, after he re-listed again. This last auction, same 1903 patterned rate and rank, sold for over 300.00. So in 6 1/2 months it jumped in value? I call 'Shenanigan'! It's like Gold! God Bless the Woman selling them, she probably had know idea. Unbelievable.

I think what was going on is some new bidders that have not done any research and may not be members on here even. I will say it openly that Carpenter's Mate CPO she has is way way way too high, and if you notice it is the same two bidders having a pissing match over it. All I can do is laugh because that is one of the most common 1905-1913 pattern rating badges to find. Hopefully this is all a phase and things calm down, I have seen this happen before, and things tend to cool off. I really hope this does not become some big money hobby. I do hope this does not end up like Baseball cards. The one advantage to the market increasing is we might see some more rarer pieces hit the market.