Jump to content

A.L.I.C.E. Gear Reference Topic


Recommended Posts

Sgtmonroe, Nice collection of very early ALICE you got there. thumbsup.gif

 

To keep this nice topic going, I'll add some more photos and maybe offer comparisons of early and late stuff and show some variations.

 

I'll start with the ammunition pouch. As mentioned, the ALICE was developed from the LINCLOE. Here is a side by side photo of the LINCLOE pouch and a 1974 dated pouch;

 

Picture955.jpg

 

The pouch on the left is the LINCLOE while on the right is the ALICE. Externally, one can hardly tell the difference. The only difference is the absence of stitching for the plastic stiffener on the front flap cover on the LINCLOE

 

Picture946-1.jpg

 

The main difference is when the cover is opened. The LINCLOE has additional covers for each magazine inside while the ALICE has only dividers.

 

Picture940-1.jpg

Picture947-1.jpg

 

Just for comparisson, side by side photos of the forerunner of both pouches which is the M67 30round magazine pouch.

 

Picture937.jpg

Left to right: M67, LINCLOE, ALICE

 

Picture948-1.jpg

Left= M67 Right=LINCLOE

 

From the ALICE ammunition pouches' introduction in the early 70's up to the late 90's, the pouch design hardly changed at all. The only significant change occured during the early 90's when color was changed from OG to Bluish Green.

 

Picture939-1.jpg

Left = LC-1 1974 dated. Right = LC-2 1997 dated.

 

Other minor differences between the early and late pouches are (1) the top cover is slightly wider in the late pouch for ease of closing

Picture942-1.jpg

 

(2) the magazine dividers in the early were removed. Though the dividers served their purpose to keep the magazines upright even if one or two mags were removed, putting them back is quite a pain because of those.

Picture941-1.jpg

 

and (3), the front plastic stiffener stitching goes all the way down in the late pouch while in the early, it just goes around the female snap

Picture944-1.jpg

 

 

Next topic - ALICE suspenders.

 

 

 

Hermie :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

The ALICE Suspender. This is one item that didn't change at all, except for the color.

The change from LC-1 to LC-2 is just purely redesignation and no actual change in the design was made.

 

LC-1 suspender

Picture950-1.jpg

 

LC-2 suspender late production, bluish-green color.

Picture949-1.jpg

 

This is an accessory slip-on padding for the suspender. Got this in the early 80s.

Picture952.jpg

 

The absence of any markings or labels except for the letters FMCO made me guess that this is an aftermarket or commercial product. Any info about this will be greatly appreciated.

 

Slipped on

Picture953.jpg

 

 

Next topic = ALICE Pistol Belts

 

 

Hermie :)

Link to post
Share on other sites
The absence of any markings or labels except for the letters FMCO made me guess that this is an aftermarket or commercial product. Any info about this will be greatly appreciated.

 

FMCO (i think it's the same company) it's an american company that still make alice-like pouches. It's been active since half the 80's. Their products are still marked with a simple FMCO stamp.

 

On a side note, some of their lbv seems to have been used by Us army rangers, even in panama.

 

http://www.antipersonnel.net/fmco/index.html

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Here is an example of an LC-1 marked canteen cover with DSA 75 date. For comparison is the DSA 74 version with both the vertical and horizontal stitiching (similar to ones shown earlier in this thread). The LC-1 designation was changed to LC-2 shortly after, although I am not certain when. I have seen DSA 78 canteen covers marked as LC-2.

 

post-141-1225560698.jpg

 

post-141-1225560707.jpg

donation2008.gif
Link to post
Share on other sites
Per chance this manual came into the store with some other assorted items. If there is interest I can scan the pages given time and post to a separate thread. It is dated 1976.

 

The 1976 ALICE Training Circular [pictured above] TC 10-19 was released prior to the updated 1977 FM 21-15. All the material contained in TC 10-19 is included in the 1977 FM 21-15.

donation2009.gifdonation2010.gif

donation2011.gifdonation2012.gifdonation2013.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites

As the recession has hit the army navy surplus business as well as other parts of retail world, your truly has had some time on his hands to scan the TC 10-19 manual as my old school values prevent me from cutting hours on the existing work schedule. Although most of the infomration is covered in other manuals, I think the three color diagrams in this manual add extra value to the line diagrams in the later field manuals. I will post in a separate thread.

donation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2011.gif

donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
As the recession has hit the army navy surplus business as well as other parts of retail world, your truly has had some time on his hands to scan the TC 10-19 manual as my old school values prevent me from cutting hours on the existing work schedule. Although most of the infomration is covered in other manuals, I think the three color diagrams in this manual add extra value to the line diagrams in the later field manuals. I will post in a separate thread.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...c=30114&hl=

 

Greetz ;)

 

David

Money can't buy happiness -- but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Corvette than in a Yugo.

 

donation2007.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gifdonation2011.gif

donation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gif

donation2017.gifdonation2018.gifdonation2019.gifdonation2020.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites

ALICE FRAME

 

Some photo contribution. ;)

 

Side by side comparison of the early frame (left) and the post 1977 frame (right). The early frame is noticeably shorter.

Picture978.jpg

 

Other differences, aside from the color, are the early has bigger strap loop holes and the frame tube ends at the level of the frame base.

Picture979.jpg

 

Minor variations in the post 1977 frame.

The plastic insert around the strap loop hole of this one has its sharp edge in the interior side of the frame.

Picture986.jpg

 

This one dispensed with the plastic insert completely.

Picture988.jpg

 

LOWER BACK STRAP and WAIST STRAP

 

Early (Top) ( forgot to include the adjusting buckle) and the post 1977 (below)

Picture981.jpg

 

The late back and waist strap dispensed with the metal adjusters and replaced the dark green snap buckle with a black fastex buckle

Picture989.jpg

 

There may be some more variants, but these are just what I have.

 

 

 

Hermie :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Case, Field First Aid Dressing - Unmounted Magnetic Compass

 

DSC09780.jpg

 

(left to right) DSA100-73 "small snap", DSA100-73 "large snap", DSA100-74 "large snap", and SPO100-05.

 

DSC09781.jpg

 

(left) 1974 contract (right) 2005 contract. As with the small arms ammunition cases and water canteen covers, the color of the nylon used to construct the field first aid dressing cases has changed from olive green 107 to a grey-green color. This color nylon started appearing on late 1990's/early 2000's items. I have field first aid dressing cases dated 2000, 2002, and 2005 that are all made from the grey-green nylon.

 

The only other major variation is the size of the snap closure. On early 1973 and 1974 contracts a smaller [about 13mm in diameter] snap closure is utilized. On later 1974 contract dated [and some later 1973 contract dated] the snap closure is changed to a larger diameter snap [about 15mm].

 

Just for information this is the contract information stamped on early 1973 and 1974 contract field first aid dressing cases:

 

1973 early contract [small snap]

CASE, FIELD FIRST AID

PACKET, COMPASS

DSA 100-73-C-0860

8465-935-6814

NATIONAL LINE CO., INC.

 

1973 late contract [large snap]

CASE FIELD AID

PACKET COMPASS

DSA100-73-1717

FSN 8465-935-6814

LANKFORD MFG. CO., INC.

 

1974 early contract [small snap]

CASE, FIELD FIRST AID

PACKET, COMPASS

DSA 100-74-C-0118

8465-935-6814

S & S MFG. CO.

 

1974 late contract [large snap] first variant with FSN

CASE, FIELD FIRST AID PACKET, COMPASS

DSA 100-74-F-U973

FSN 8465-935-6814

CALIF. IND. F/T BLIND INC.

 

1974 late contract [large snap] second variant with NSN

CASE, FIELD FIRST AID PACKET, COMPASS

DSA 100-74-F-U973

NSN 8465-00-935-6814

CALIF. IND. F/T BLIND INC.

donation2009.gifdonation2010.gif

donation2011.gifdonation2012.gifdonation2013.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites

I am sure most everyone has seen the first two images. They are, of course, from the November 1973 ALICE manual. These are the earliest images of the ALICE system - the photographs obviously taken in 1973.

 

The third photograph is one I found on an ePay auction. The photograph appears to be scanned out of a book - but which one? I am curious as I have contacted the seller and he or she will not reply. It appears the photograph is from a collector's text and not an official military technical or field manual. It does appear to be a period photograph - but then again without knowing what text it comes from it's hard to say.

 

The image shows a STABO rig circa 1970s. If it is a period photograph the M-1967 small arms ammunition cases and field first aid dressing case are great to see - but - the water canteen covers are holy grail covers - they are LINCLOE experimental water canteen covers that eventually evolved into the LC-1 water canteen cover. The dead giveaway are the straps under the snap closures - these were added to help unfasten the snaps more rapidly. They were eliminated on the final production water canteen covers. This type of "assistant" strap made a reappearence on the pouches [magazine and grenade] on the IIFS Tactical Load Carrying Vest [LBV-88].

 

alice_01.jpg

 

alice_02.jpg

 

stabo.jpg

donation2009.gifdonation2010.gif

donation2011.gifdonation2012.gifdonation2013.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think that STABO rig pic came from any publication but rather is one taken by a collector of a rig he put together. Notice the wrinkle in the lower left corner. That is a white bed sheet for the backdrop. That is the same method I use. They just used the B&W feature of their photo editor.

 

Hopefully someone here will recogonize the photo and ID it.

donation2007.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gif

donation2011.gifdonation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gif

PLEASE NOTE: THIS COMMUNITY MEMBER, SADLY, HAS PASSED AWAY

Link to post
Share on other sites

I forgot to add that the pouch on the rear center of the belt is the tropical survial kit rather than a nylon jungle first aid kit. You can tell because of the tunnel on the pouch that the belt passes through rather than the M56 keepers used on the FA kit.

donation2007.gifdonation2008.gifdonation2009.gifdonation2010.gif

donation2011.gifdonation2012.gifdonation2013.gifdonation2014.gif

PLEASE NOTE: THIS COMMUNITY MEMBER, SADLY, HAS PASSED AWAY

Link to post
Share on other sites

Another canteen cover variation with DSA 75 date, with both vertical stitching and web reinforcement/stitching around the middle, this one is designated M1967 as opposed to LC-1.

 

post-141-1226700465.jpg

 

post-141-1226700477.jpg

 

Apart from the stitching and M1967 designation, the manufacturing variation noted on this cover has the web "cup lip" reinforcement set in between the outer shell and the lining (similar to the DSA 74 covers I have seen). The LC-1 and subsequent LC-2 covers all appear to have this reinforcement set "on top" of the lining rather than sewn in between the shell and lining.

donation2008.gif
Link to post
Share on other sites

Pardon my ignorance, but what does "LC1" and "LC2" mean? What are the differences? When did the change take place?

As a footnote I don't know if anyone noticed that, but the drawings on the covers of the 1976 ALICE manual and of the FM 21-15 manual ("Care and Use of Individual Clothing and Equipment") are obviously taken to the last detail from the first photos of the ALICE equipment. The only difference is that the drawings show a white soldier, while the photos portrayed a black soldier. Enough for a serious racial issue. Strange that nobody complained about that at the time.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Pardon my ignorance, but what does "LC1" and "LC2" mean? What are the differences? When did the change take place?

As a footnote I don't know if anyone noticed that, but the drawings on the covers of the 1976 ALICE manual and of the FM 21-15 manual ("Care and Use of Individual Clothing and Equipment") are obviously taken to the last detail from the first photos of the ALICE equipment. The only difference is that the drawings show a white soldier, while the photos portrayed a black soldier. Enough for a serious racial issue. Strange that nobody complained about that at the time.

I have found no official military explanation as to LC1 and LC2. "LC" allegedly stands for "Load-Carrying". Supposidly it was to indicate changes in the original design of the item. I do not know how factual that is but for the most part it holds true.

 

Individual Equipment Belt - changed from LC1 to LC2 in 1977 to indicate a change in the buckle design - even though the new quick release buckle did not appear until 1982.

Individual Equipment Belt Suspenders - changed from LC1 to LC2 in 1999 but no apparent change to the item.

Field First Aid Dressing Case - still designated LC1

Intrenching Tool Carrier - still designated LC1

Small Arms Ammunition Case - still designated LC1

Water Canteen Cover - changed from LC1 to LC2 in 1976 with apparent changes to the design.

donation2009.gifdonation2010.gif

donation2011.gifdonation2012.gifdonation2013.gif

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

This is an excellent thread :) As someone else already pointed out, there's so little information easily available about the development of ALICE from earlier systems. I'm particularly interested in understanding the step by step evolution of US LBE from ww2 through ALICE. sgtmonroe, your wikipedia article was the most helpful resource I'd found, it's a great surprise to meet the author here. In your article, a reference is made to a field pack, small that was classified by LINCLOE in 1972. I'm sure this wasn't the same as the current "small ALICE pack", really just a miniature medium pack, but do you have any idea what they had in mind? Were they originally planning a pack along the lines of the m1967 field pack(butt pack) or a smaller pack in the same family as the other two, maybe like the lightweight ruck or today's so-called "recon buttpacks"? Also, do you know what the rational was in developing the three-strap suspender in place of a four-strap design?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 4 weeks later...

Well, I actually managed to find a picture of the the experimental small ALICE pack right here on US Militaria Forum. It was right here, <http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12781&st=0&p=82177entry82177>. The image was found in the October, 1972 issue of the Marine Corps Gazette. But I'm still trying to find out if anyone has ever come across any literature explaining the shift from the H suspenders to the Y design.post-4812-1230241294.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.