River Assault Squadron 13 Japanese made

[Patchcollector]

Here is a 6/31 Bravo Bears patch from my collection.I'm certain that this piece is authentic and from the Vietnam war era.Mine is the green variant,if anyone knows what the different colors denote,please let me know.Thanks!

[Patchcollector]

Back view

[Niner Alpha]

Well..your's, Patchcollector, looks very much like the red one that Mitch believes in...lettering is just about exactly the same. Just the bear is a little different in the outline. Looks a lot like made by the same source.

 

So....how do you know it is "authentic" and from the Vietnam era? And what do you mean by "authentic" anyway? Define "authentic" for me. I find this whole subject interesting and hard to get a clear idea of what constitutes the difference between "real" and "bogus" and how "authentic" seems to fit in between the two possibilities.

 

The colors were for different platoons...but I don't know which was for which. You could ask at my site www.6thofthe31st.com if you are interested. Maybe somebody would answer your question.

 

One thing that I stumble over on the idea that small time patch producers would make extras to sell to the US collector market, over 40 years ago, is that back then there was no internet. How did these small time merchants find their buyers in the US and how would collectors in the US know if the patch used by a company unit with a hundred guys in Vietnam was genuine or not? Why are these patches still floating around now in perfect unused condition?

[Patchcollector]

Yes,mine like Mitch's would qualify as a "Cheap Charlie" type.As for the definition of "authentic",I would say that that means a piece was made in theatre,and during the war.There are more than a few threads here about the "Collector" vs "Non collector" patches,so I'm not going to go there except to say that if a person were making the same patches and putting them in two piles,one for the troops and one for the collectors back home,and a troop walked up and took a patch off the "collector" pile and sewed it on,what would it then be called? Just trying to put this in perspective..

[Bearmon]

To me the RAS 13 pocket patch is the jewel of the grouping. I think we have discussed the 3/61 to a painful death

lets keep our eye on the ball

[34BDQ]

Niner Alpha,

 

Here are three related patches re Bravo Bears. As you can see the red and green patches are the same as the previous patches. The yellow one is different.

The basic design and construction are the same and was probably made at Luong Phan's shop. These were hand guided machine made patches so it will not match

exactly as would computer generated patches.

[Niner Alpha]

Luong Phan's shop? Who's Luong Phan and where 's his shop?

 

I take it you think your patches were made back about 1969 or 70 by somebody in Vietnam and now have seen the light of day?

 

I made an Ebay search. I found a batch of Bravo Patches. Luong Phan must have been pretty busy. They are priced anywhere from $5 to $13.

 

How many of these were made by Luong Phan over four decades ago do you think?

 

[vintageproductions]

All the ones you have shown in your above comment are all fake and computer stitched, on current machines.

Not even close to being vintage.

[Patchcollector]

Hi Niner Alpha,
34BDQ's pieces look to me to be legit,theatre made during the war stuff.I know sometimes it is hard to believe that so many are out there,but many were brought back by the troops,and many were made to sell in the US.There are threads here that show the price lists for the items.Just as people today are selling theatre made patches from the middle east to collectors,so did people during the Vietnam war.Even during war business opportunities are found.
The pieces that you show are clearly modern copies.After collecting the Vietnam war pieces for awhile,one gets a feel for what is "right",and also what is "not right".
All the patches made during the war for your unit are not going to look exactly like your patch,which is the finest quality example for this unit that I have seen,BTW!
My advice is to study the Vietnam war era theatre made examples posted on this forum,and soon it will become apparent as to which patches are from the war era and vice versa.Pay particular attention to the backs of the patches,as the back view frequently tells more about the piece than the front side.Hope this helps.

[Niner Alpha]

Patchcollector, I'm sure you know a lot more about what to look for in determining what is real and what is not in the patch collecting hobby than I do. I don't fault you at all on that count. However, I'd like a little more provenance than the stitching technique. I don't think that tells you anything about where the patch came from, when it was made, or why it was made. I'd think it would be very easy to make a misjudgement about history by only looking at the stitching.

 

Even the "computer" guided patches I copied off ebay aren't all the same if you look closely. Must have had different programs or ran out of various thread colors. No three line fire from the barrel of the gun barrel for instance.

 

Having been a collector of MIlsurp weapons for a lot of years I learned long ego to not believe any history about any collectible that somebody is trying to sell you unless he has some actual proof that is pretty iron clad.

[Patchcollector]

Patchcollector, I'm sure you know a lot more about what to look for in determining what is real and what is not in the patch collecting hobby than I do. I don't fault you at all on that count. However, I'd like a little more provenance than the stitching technique. I don't think that tells you anything about where the patch came from, when it was made, or why it was made. I'd think it would be very easy to make a misjudgement about history by only looking at the stitching.

 

Even the "computer" guided patches I copied off ebay aren't all the same if you look closely. Must have had different programs or ran out of various thread colors. No three line fire from the barrel of the gun barrel for instance.

 

Having been a collector of MIlsurp weapons for a lot of years I learned long ego to not believe any history about any collectible that somebody is trying to sell you unless he has some actual proof that is pretty iron clad.

 

 

Some collectors will only have pieces that have provenance with them in their collections,and some collectors will not collect anything but unworn patches.It is all a matter of preference.

But we must keep in mind that although it is probably rare,provenance can be faked and making a patch look worn can be done too.

[Bearmon]

I bring this back to the top because on the back page of the latest "Trading Post" is this patch. I think this is one i was out bid on i recognize the chain stitching ....

 

 

I do not know if the ID is correct, but it does lend credence to the possible ID's in this thread