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Doc B
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Help!!!!...Having collected Brit and Commonwealth militaria for 40 years, now I am oozing over into US stuff and I have a very, very simple question.

There are no dealers or stores around here for help, so I thought I would go to the forum. Very dumb question, but I don't have an answer

My question: Round insignia, 1 3/4 inches in diameter, entire insignia is contained within a circle about 1/16 inches wide, bronze, screw-post attachment, US arms (eagle, shield, circle above with 13 stars etc...you've seen a billion of 'em)..all background is voided. Casted., not stamped..Looks old.

Obviously a hat device...but...what else?

Do I have a scarce piece, or am I looking at another piece of popcorn in a bag?

Thanks, from an amature

Dr B

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craig_pickrall

That sounds like a Service Cap insignia for enlisted troops. It would probably date to the 1930's. While not rare or overly expensive it is not common either. I don't keep up with prices but someone will probably sound off on that. A front and back pic will be a big help in an ID.

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....My question: Round insignia, 1 3/4 inches in diameter, entire insignia is contained within a circle about 1/16 inches wide, bronze, screw-post attachment, US arms (eagle, shield, circle above with 13 stars etc...you've seen a billion of 'em)..all background is voided....Do I have a scarce piece...?

You have described the enlisted service cap insignia for USAF transitional period (late 1940s and early 1950s), which was worn on Air Force OD uniforms until the new Air Force blue uniforms were fully in place. It shown in the image below (which is borrowed from another topic on this subject -- link here):

 

post-1963-1207440692.jpg

 

Once the USAF transitioned to blue uniforms, the enlisted service cap insignia and the "U.S." collar and lapel insignia changed color from yellow/bronze to muted silver and the winged propellor insignia was eliminated. Somewhat scarce.

 

If this is not what you have, it would be a good idea for you to upload an image of your piece so we can see it.

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...Thats it!...so....another one for the "Oh yeah" box.

Thank you both. It is very much appreciated.

Dr B

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craig_pickrall

That same cap insignia is used by Army female Drill Instructors.

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...That same cap insignia is used by Army female Drill Instructors...

That might be the right call, Craig. Army enlisted women's service cap insignia is enclosed within a ring 1 3/4 inches in diameter; enlisted men's is on a disk 1 1/2 inches in diameter (fig. 28-7 and 28-8, AR 670-1). Dr. B identifies his insignia as being "Round insignia, 1 3/4 inches in diameter..." If we rule out the Army enlisted men's service cap insignia on grounds of its design and regulation size, we are left with the enlisted women's service cap insignia and, provisionally, the USAF enlisted men's transitional service cap insignia: The design is correct but I do not know its size. Perhaps someone who owns a confirmed USAF design will measure its diameter and post the results here. Or, better yet, does anyone have a period USAF directive on this subject?

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craig_pickrall

I did some reading, checking and measuring and came up with the following.

 

When GLM / Gary posted the pierced cap insignia in gold he questioned if it was truly early USAF transition. I think he had a pretty good idea it was not since he asked someone to confirm it. In looking at the pics in that same thread the only pierced cap insignia you see is when the blue cap is worn and this applies to both male and females.

 

I was collecting in the early 1950's when this insignia was new. Granted I was 10 to 12 years old but it was a collection none the less. I have original to the period USAF gold pierced US and Wing / Prop branch insignia but no gold pierced cap insignia. I also have the pierced US in silver with the matching silver pierced cap insignia. I can't imagine I would have missed the cap insignia in gold if it existed.

 

I measured about 25 Army male cap insignia dating from the 1930's to present. This includes solid one piece brass from the 30's, plaster from WW2 and the normal multi piece brass used from WW2 to present. They all measured 1 1/2".

 

I have a Army female pierced in gold cap insignia that is issue and still in the package. It is dated 1976 and measures 1 3/4".

 

I have a known USAF in silver that is pierced and dates to the early 1950's. It measures 1 3/4".

 

I think the insignia that started this thread is Army female and with the current knowledge I do not think this insignia was ever used by the USAF.

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I did some reading, checking and measuring and came up with the following.

 

When GLM / Gary posted the pierced cap insignia in gold he questioned if it was truly early USAF transition. I think he had a pretty good idea it was not since he asked someone to confirm it. In looking at the pics in that same thread the only pierced cap insignia you see is when the blue cap is worn and this applies to both male and females.

 

I was collecting in the early 1950's when this insignia was new. Granted I was 10 to 12 years old but it was a collection none the less. I have original to the period USAF gold pierced US and Wing / Prop branch insignia but no gold pierced cap insignia. I also have the pierced US in silver with the matching silver pierced cap insignia. I can't imagine I would have missed the cap insignia in gold if it existed.

 

I measured about 25 Army male cap insignia dating from the 1930's to present. This includes solid one piece brass from the 30's, plaster from WW2 and the normal multi piece brass used from WW2 to present. They all measured 1 1/2".

 

I have a Army female pierced in gold cap insignia that is issue and still in the package. It is dated 1976 and measures 1 3/4".

 

I have a known USAF in silver that is pierced and dates to the early 1950's. It measures 1 3/4".

 

I think the insignia that started this thread is Army female and with the current knowledge I do not think this insignia was ever used by the USAF.

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I don't want to throw a monkeywrench into the works....but this sucker is, as stated: 1 3/4 inches in diameter and is a silver color (post-polishing) If I wasn't so stupid, I would add a scan, but duh......

Thanks,

Dr B

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craig_pickrall

If it is silver then it is the standard USAF cap insignia. You said bronze in your first post and I guess that is what threw us into gold. Silver wasn't mentioned.

 

The one we have been kicking around is the gold one shown in the pic.

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...with the current knowledge I do not think this insignia was ever used by the USAF....

The pictures posted on the USAF transition era thread show that Army khaki service caps have full disk backed insignia while USAF blue service hats have the pierced ring insignia (and some pictures show both styles of service cap mixed in the same group of airmen). The confirmed range of dates for these pictures is Sept. 1948 to Oct. 1952. Craig is correct: It doesn't look good for the brass colored pierced ring service hat insignia for USAF enlisted men. On the other hand, neither do we have period pictures showing confirmed wear of the pierced ring wing-and-prop enlisted collar insignia. Is this insignia a phantom as well? This subject begs documentation. Doesn't anyone in this organization have contemporaneous USAF directives or other authoritative paper addressing these insignia?

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The only difference between the old USAF transitional hat brass and the current Army female brass is the fastener. The USAF piece is screwback and the Female Army piece has two clutch backs.

Years ago, one of my collecting mentors who was also an old AAF/USAF man had the brass USAF device on his OD service cap. It was a screwback and he also had the transition collar brass on his Ike jacket. (By the way, they did make the pierced winged prop in oxidized silver too, and it is shown in the 1950 Airman's Guide. This item didn't last long at all.) It should also be noted again, that much of this "transitional", brass used by the Air Force never actually got used that much by the troops. The transition began in 1949 and was pretty well done by the end of the Korean War. I've talked to several vets from this time frame and many do not remember seeing some or any of these transition brass pieces!

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craig_pickrall
The only difference between the old USAF transitional hat brass and the current Army female brass is the fastener. The USAF piece is screwback and the Female Army piece has two clutch backs.

 

The female cap insignia mentioned in my previous post is dated 1976 still on the issue card and sealed in plastic. It has the screw post not clutch back fasteners. It was intended for the female Drill SGT hat. It is identical to the USAF cap insignia except for the color.

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The female cap insignia mentioned in my previous post is dated 1976 still on the issue card and sealed in plastic. It has the screw post not clutch back fasteners. It was intended for the female Drill SGT hat. It is identical to the USAF cap insignia except for the color.

 

I want to thank all you gents for your help. Sorry about the red herring regarding the metal color...it was silver underneath all the grunge and it does have a screw-post fastener, so I reckon it it is AF in the 48-52 yrs.

Once again...thanks. This is really a great forum and much more friendly than another one that I won't mention, except that it is not located here in the states.

Semper fi...

Dr B

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  • 3 months later...
...Craig is correct: It doesn't look good for the brass colored pierced ring service hat insignia for USAF enlisted men. On the other hand, neither do we have period pictures showing confirmed wear of the pierced ring wing-and-prop enlisted collar insignia. Is this insignia a phantom as well? This subject begs documentation. Doesn't anyone in this organization have contemporaneous USAF directives or other authoritative paper addressing these insignia?

It looks like I get to answer my own question this time. I finally located a copy of the USAF directive that addressed these "gold-colored" metal insignia, which were intended to be worn on USAF transitional period uniforms. Here is the pertinent page:

 

post-1963-1217806058.jpg

While this directive unambiguously authorized a "gold-colored" version of the pierced service cap insignia we were discussing, this lead paragraph gave plenty of latitude for this item not to be widely worn before it was overtaken by its silver predecessor:

 

post-1963-1217806083.jpg

Note: I'll post the entire directive at the USAF transitional uniform topic (after I have time to convert it into a reasonably sized file).

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craig_pickrall

That is some pretty good detective work. How much digging was required to find that?

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Actually, this subject has been in my cold case file since April when the lights went out on this topic. I dug around a bit back then, didn't get anywhere, and moved on. Today, while tracking a totally unrelated subject, I tripped over this directive on Internet....more like Clouseau than Holmes. Thanks anyway for the compliment, Craig.

 

The full directive is posted now at the USAF transitional uniform topic (link here).

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craig_pickrall

In my experience I can remember I have the data but it is seldom in the 100 places I look for it. I usually stumble across it at a later date, much like what you did. The problem is that I can remember that I wanted it but I'm at the age now that I can't remember why.

 

Still it was a good job that you got it all put together.

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