Recipient of the DSC but not the CIB

[Wharfmaster]

Big mistake awarding a combat service badge to the Infantry only. Even bigger mistake awarding a Bronze Star to all of them for WW2. It downgraded the Bronze Star. Just politics, pure and simple.

 

 

 

W

[M2MikeGolf]

Seanmc1114,

 

My comment was just a personal statement, not to have any bearing or application to the regulation or policy. I only say that about the EIB because I was awarded a CIB and then later when EIB training occurred, I went. It was mandatory for all in my unit at first, and then they said that anyone with a CIB could drop out. Every single soldier that had a CIB and no EIB dropped out, except for one, me. There became quite a division of people, those with EIBs and those with CIBs. Those with both were clean. I quickly realized that it just seemed "the right thing to do". Your statements and view were correct, and I support them. Didn't mean to cause a ruckus about that, it's a personal view, not one necessarily that I think the regulation should reflect.

 

Interestingly, the EIB was created simultaneously with the CIB, but nobody ever really awarded it. No one was really sure what to do with it. The idea was that commanders could recommend their soldiers one level or the other based on performance, or not even recommend a soldier at all, it was never necessarily "automatic" as some have suggested. Even today, an infantry commander must recommend the soldiers for it. And what many don't realize is that it's a qualification badge, not a medal or award like a BSM or SS or others such. And what many don't understand about the CIB is that it was created as a response to the Air medal, which was created for those air corps personnel.

 

It is true, some provisional infantry units were created on Bataan. Here's the bad news. Although it was not due to lack of effort, those units proved to be near ineffective and could not be counted on. Harold K. Johnson was the S-3 for the 57th IN Reg, and he flatly refused to include any of the provisional units in operations due to their unreliability. This demonstrates why trained infantryman in infantry units were the target of the CIB. The provisional units barely even existed on paper.

 

You may recall Harold K. Johnson was the Army Chief of Staff in 1968 and told McNamara and President Johnson that they would lose in Vietnam if they continued their policies. He retired when they refused to listen. Johnson knew his business, and you can guess he and others like him felt the regulations pertaining to the CIB were fine they way they were.

[scottiques]

By regulation, the EIB is a level of the CIB award; if you have a CIB, you cannot even wear your EIB as the CIB is considered the higher level.

 

NOT correct.

 

CIB is a combat award. The EIB is awarded after passing the test.

 

It is correct that you cannot wear BOTH at the same time, but it is the option of the soldier as to which he wears.

 

Some infantry leaders will change over and wear their EIB (in lieu of CIB) just prior to/ during EIB testing in order to encourage new soldiers or those without it to prepare for the testing.

 

Scott

[MPage]

I'm currently reading a book written by a US Army member of UNPIK in Korea, i.e., an infantry officer who advised and coordinated partisan units behind enemy lines. He was awarded the Silver Star for leading a raid on an enemy installation, but it took years to convince the army to authorize his CIB. The army's view was that special operations didn't really qualify for the CIB. He didn't get approval until the mid-1960's.

[patches]

To echo what Robersabel wrote, being an infantryman by MOS was not necessary. Below is a General Order awarding the CIB to Japanese-Americans serving with the 77th ID, these men were attached to an infantry unit to serve as interpreters.

Authorization for the award is listed in the first sentence.

 

There Branch is given as Infantry Sean, and attached at the Regimental Level, probably in the WWII era Attached and Assigned was used interchangeably, and was not seen as a great distinction from one and other.So this in this reguard I don't see why they wouldn't recieve the CIB, though it must of been real nerve racking, and a major cause of concern all they way to the top given what would of befell these Nisei if they were captured by the Japanese, a very grim prospect indeed.

[Manchu Warrior]

My thoughts on the EIB. I personally believe the EIB to be a ridiculous award, and why? Because if we had trained more than one day a week during Sergeant's Time we may have all been EIB qualified. The problem I had was when EIB time came around they wanted to cram all this training down our throats when there was so much wasted time the rest of year. And what were we doing the rest of the year or on the other days of the week when we were not in the field or it wasn't Sergeant's Time? I spent most of my days in the motor pool because my primary MOS was 11M and I was on mounted crew either on a BFV or a M113. But when I was not in the motor pool I was right along side the dismounts on details that involved mowing grass or painting what ever building needed to be painted on post or moving what ever furniture needed to be moved. We even, on more than a few occasions, actually had the pleasure of picking up trash along the Georgia highways right along side inmates in the Federal prison system. And it wasn't even any type of a disciplinarian detail. Actually they were probably the only civilians that I ever worked with while I was in the army that I out earned on a paycheck. As the saying goes, "Queen of battle follow me." My only question would be can you paint or mow grass? Do I sound bitter? Honestly, I wouldn't have had it any other way.

[seanmc1114]

 

NOT correct.

 

CIB is a combat award. The EIB is awarded after passing the test.

 

It is correct that you cannot wear BOTH at the same time, but it is the option of the soldier as to which he wears.

 

Some infantry leaders will change over and wear their EIB (in lieu of CIB) just prior to/ during EIB testing in order to encourage new soldiers or those without it to prepare for the testing.

 

Scott

 

Yes and no. What you say is correct now, but when the badges were originally created in WWII, the regulations stated that the CIB was to be awarded for exemplary performance in combat while the EIB was awarded either for satisfactory performance in combat or the successful completion of a series of tests demonstrating the soldier's proficiency as an infantryman. So initially, the EIB could be awarded as sort of a junior version of the CIB in addition to passing as series of tests. However, I have never seen any evidence that in practice the EIB was ever awarded under the first criteria. In a way it seems like it would be a slap in the face of the recipients to suggest they were entitled to some recognition for their performance in combat but to qualify it as only being satisfactory. I'm sure that is why that basis for awarding the EIB was ultimately rescinded.

[seanmc1114]

Here is a set of orders from early in the advisory period of the Vietnam War legitimately awarding the CIB to officers of the Armor and Artillery branches under the criteria that they were serving as advisors to a foreign infantry unit. I believe that change was made to the regulations in the early 60's.

[Robersabel]

[Robersabel]

[patches]

If I may add this site I just found to this topic.

 

http://kynghistory.ky.gov/harrodsburg+heros.htm

[patches]

Found this interesting PI USAAC vet with the CIB. Harold Bergbower, he was in the PI and was in the Air Corps, a Mechanic, he also served for years after in the Air Force retiring as a Chief Master Sergeant, I guess some time in the 1960s, (note he's wearing the current AF uniform and insignia to include the current insigina of a Chief Master Sergeant).

 

 

 

His bio seen below, unfortunately it doesn't mention his initial Air Corps unit he was in before and during the opening phase of the Japanese invasion, I think one has to click on ROSTERS on the upper left to see his AC unit, I'll let you do it for me

 

http://philippine-defenders.lib.wv.us/html/bergbower_harold_bio.html

 

 

 

 

[seanmc1114]

Here is a photo of a Signal Corps officer wearing a CIB in Vietnam. As his bio indicates, he served one tour as the communications officer of the 2nd Battalion 60th Infantry in Vietnam so I assume that his award of the CIB was based on that assignment. He may, in fact probably did, have orders for the CIB. However, I don't think there would be any scenario under the regulations where an award of the CIB to a Signal Corps officer serving in a communications position, even in an infantry battalion, would be authorized. So rather than this being an exception that proves the rule, I would argue that it was probably just a misapplication of the regulations.

 

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~dunnliz/59.htm

 

[unclegrumpy]

Seanmac1114......it appears the Signal Corps officer you found changed branches, and was originally an Infantry Officer, which would explain his CIB:

 

"This is to certify that the president of the United States of America has awarded the air medal to First Lieutenant William J. Schuck, Infantry, United States army for meritorious achievement while participating in aerial flight in the republic of Vietnam during the period 27 December 1966 to 30 March 1967"

[patches]

Vietnam Veterans Database

Name: SCHUCK WILLIAM J

Branch: ARMY

Rate: O03

Rank: CAPTAIN

MOS: 1010

MOS Title: Combat Signal Unit Commander

Entered: 6311

Discharged:

Service Number:

State: UNKNOWN

Race: CAUCASIAN

[patches]

See the DIs on Schuck, there for the 63rd Signal Battalion, a corp level SIGs unit originally from Ft Rilely Kansas, in the RVN it fell under the 1st Sig Bde.

 

 

 

So as we see from his data base entry, he was a Captain holding a Signal Corps MOS, this photo is I can guarantee one taken on his second tour, as we see he's not only in a different unit then the 9th Inf Div, but also a Captain, he most likely just switched branches altogether as we do see his awards are lists as INFANTRY. The data base always lists ranks of second or last tours, thus Captain rather then 2nd Lieutenant. His slot as Commo Officer in HHC 2/60th Inf? nothing more then a line officer shunted in to this slot, something common enough in Inf Battalions then and before if actual branch officers were not available.

[seanmc1114]

Seanmac1114......it appears the Signal Corps officer you found changed branches, and was originally an Infantry Officer, which would explain his CIB:

 

"This is to certify that the president of the United States of America has awarded the air medal to First Lieutenant William J. Schuck, Infantry, United States army for meritorious achievement while participating in aerial flight in the republic of Vietnam during the period 27 December 1966 to 30 March 1967"

 

 

See the DIs on Schuck, there for the 63rd Signal Battalion, a corp level SIGs unit originally from Ft Rilely Kansas, in the RVN it fell under the 1st Sig Bde.

 

 

DUI-0063G_W.png

 

So as we see from his data base entry, he was a Captain holding a Signal Corps MOS, this photo is I can guarantee one taken on his second tour, as we see he's not only in a different unit then the 9th Inf Div, but also a Captain, he most likely just switched branches altogether as we do see his awards are lists as INFANTRY. The data base always lists ranks of second or last tours, thus Captain rather then 2nd Lieutenant. His slot as Commo Officer in HHC 2/60th Inf? nothing more then a line officer shunted in to this slot, something common enough in Inf Battalions then and before if actual branch officers were not available.

I didn't notice the reference to Infantry branch in the Air Medal citation. However, notice that his Bronze Star citation refers to him as Signal Corps:

 

This is to certify that the President of the United States of America has awarded the Bronze Star Medal to First Lieutenant William J. Schuck, Signal Corps, United States Army for meritorious achievement in ground operations against hostile forces in the republic of Vietnam during the period 1 June 1966 to 31 October 1967"

 

Although awarded later, the Bronze Star citation cover a period that overlaps the Air Medal period. If both citations are correct, then he indeed began his tour as an Infantry officer and transitioned to the Signal Corps at some point during his tour in Vietnam. How common was it for an officer to officially change branches in the middle of a combat tour?

[patches]

Well he listed in the 1969 Officers Registry Vol 2 as SC CPT Temp, 1st LT Perm, cant find the 1967 one.