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M1A1 Thompson SMG


all1knew
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Very nice. Probably worth $ 800 to $ 1,000 to a re-enactor or jeep guy. How was it demilled? It is the military version and was made by Savage Arms.

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The OP clearly states in his opening sentence that it is deactivated per BATFE regulations.

 

Cobrahistorian,

 

Yes, that is stated, but this Thompson is clearly NOT deactivated per current BATFE regulations. I will say it again, even though my earlier post was apparently deleted...This Thompson is worth 10 years, and a $10,000 fine without paperwork.

 

The current BATFE specification for deactivation is that the original receiver is torch cut into at least 3 separate pieces, and there is also a standard for the width of the cut line.

 

The only scenario I can see is if appropriate paperwork exists for this Thompson that was generated during the time when machine guns could be "dewatted," which was a federally papered process involving an attestation by certain legal authorities that a machine gun had been rendered inoperable by approved means at that time. The latest example of such a dewatting I've personally seen was from 1970. If this Thompson meets that definition, and is still a papered dewat in the hands of the person it is registered to, then my apprehensions about it will be assuaged.

 

I'm just trying to help here...

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

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I have paperwork with this, which contains the serial no.

 

(and this tag that came with it when purchased of course)

 

 

 

post-83697-0-34412300-1372385202.jpg

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I have paperwork with this, which contains the serial no.

 

(and this tag that came with it when purchased of course)

 

 

 

 

all1knew,

 

What I'm going to say is that you should very carefully consider exactly what paperwork you have for this gun. If it's not federal paperwork for which you had to apply with fingerprint cards, wait many months, and receive approval back from BATFE before acquisition, then you should take a step back, and think about what you have acquired. You are also apparently in Illinois, which is a major issue for enabling the proper paperwork to be approved.

 

Despite what the tag says, this appears to be a machine gun subject to the National Firearms Act of 1934. All NFA Rules Apply.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

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If you had to use an acid to disintegrate and eat away at the metal which was installed and prevents the receiver from actually working, would that be a legal replica to own?

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Trooper B.A.R

All this paper work needed from ATF for a demilled display Thompson is something I have never heard of. IMA, SARCO, and several other military dealers sell demilled, or parts to make a complete legal display Thompson. Any time you take a Class # firearm from your home you need to carry proper paperwork. You do not need paperwork, unless you demill an active Thompson or other fully-auto. I own class 3 firearms, and have for over 30 years. Dealth with ATF agents. I also have demilled German machine guns, and a Grease Gun. None have nor need paper work for a demilled firearm.

Again, there is no paperwork required for a Demilled Thompson, but if demilling an active on the list, you do need to let ATF know (paperwork) so the firearm is being demilled, and off the active roster.

You can call IMA, SARCO, and ask if paperwork is sent along to verify their sales of demilled autos.

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Trooper B.A.R

All this paper work needed from ATF for a demilled display Thompson is something I have never heard of. IMA, SARCO, and several other military dealers sell demilled, or parts to make a complete legal display Thompson. Any time you take a Class # firearm from your home you need to carry proper paperwork. You do not need paperwork, unless you demill an active Thompson or other fully-auto. I own class 3 firearms, and have for over 30 years. Dealth with ATF agents. I also have demilled German machine guns, and a Grease Gun. None have nor need paper work for a demilled firearm.

Again, there is no paperwork required for a Demilled Thompson, but if demilling an active on the list, you do need to let ATF know (paperwork) so the firearm is being demilled, and off the active roster.

You can call IMA, SARCO, and ask if paperwork is sent along to verify their sales of demilled autos.

I will add, there are 2 types of class3, those that can be sold amongst civilians, collectors such as us. That need stamps and approval. And those owned by law enforcement, and dealers. These can be only sold from Class 3 dealers, and law enforcement, never to collectors.

The 2nd part comes into play, if any of the above want to de-mill them so they can be sold as trophies, or display firearms only, not needing a Class 3 transfer nor stamp. Then, and only then is a de-milled required to go through ATF to have the firearm re-classified as a non-class3. So it may then be sold without paperwork. A de-milled firearm is then taken off the registry, checked by a AFT agent and given the okay to sell. Parts and de-milled firearms are sold by SARCO, and IMA, and several others, and need no further paperwork by seller, nor buyer to purchase. Any one can check Shotgun News ad and see these advertiesed, and if unsure, just call the toll free number they show and ask.

We use a Trust to acquire our Class 3, lot easier, no hassle, once set up. It takes less then 4 weeks to acquire a Class 3 to add to our collection.

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Its a tricky subject thanks to the dimwits in govt and the notorious anti-gun BATFE.

 

If this is an old DEWAT or Deactivated War Trophy, it would have Federal Paperwork (if it was papered) to prove it. The standards in the 40's, 50's and 60's were a lot different than today...and technically many DEWATs could run afoul of current laws, UNLESS the are properly papered. Then they are perfectly legal to own, buy or sell (gotta keep the paperwork with it though).

 

It can be a rebuilt Demil...its hard to tell from the pics. The really old demils just had to be cut into three sections, and you could use a saw, ATF changed that requirement since it was "too easy" to rebuild such a receiver into a working weapon. Then they went to torch cut, three cuts, now its four cuts with at least 1/4" of material destroyed in each cut. The early saw cut kits are HIGHLY desireable and go for big bucks usually, the ole three cut kits are also very desireable.

 

Any of these kits can be put back together as a "dmmuy" gun, but certain rules have to be followed...one big one is that they have to be modified somehow, so original "guts" cant work...one way is to weld a plate in the receiver, and mill a corresponding cut into the bolt, so that only the modified bolt will fit,,,there are a bunch of other stupid rules that have to be followed too, I do not know them you'd have to refer to ATF website for them...

 

In any case there are lots of dummies, demils, and dewats out there that followed the rules when they were made, but might not comply to current rules, etc, etc...whether they could be considered "grandfathered" I don't know.

 

Also other countries have much saner rules concerning dummy guns...Canada for example. There you can buy legal dummy guns that are legally "demilled" but you can still operate the charging handles, etc...unfortunately, they are not legal here.

 

Its a real mess, but one thing I can guarantee you, if you present it to any police agency, law enforcement branch, or the ATF with the question "is it legal" you will never see it again. You will have to do some research on what you have as far as how it was demilled or if it is a DEWAT, etc....

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All this paper work needed from ATF for a demilled display Thompson is something I have never heard of. IMA, SARCO, and several other military dealers sell demilled, or parts to make a complete legal display Thompson. Any time you take a Class # firearm from your home you need to carry proper paperwork. You do not need paperwork, unless you demill an active Thompson or other fully-auto. I own class 3 firearms, and have for over 30 years. Dealth with ATF agents. I also have demilled German machine guns, and a Grease Gun. None have nor need paper work for a demilled firearm.

Again, there is no paperwork required for a Demilled Thompson, but if demilling an active on the list, you do need to let ATF know (paperwork) so the firearm is being demilled, and off the active roster.

You can call IMA, SARCO, and ask if paperwork is sent along to verify their sales of demilled autos.

 

Trooper B.A.R.,

 

The main difference between a dummy gun sold by IMA and others is that they are selling parts assembled onto a dummy receiver. The dummy Thompson receiver they sell is not an original receiver that has been modified not to shoot, nor is it an original receiver that has been cut into pieces according to BATFE destruction standards, and then reassembled. There is no original receiver sold, unless it is sold as torch cut pieces so it is no longer considered a machine gun, having been destroyed to the standards set by BATFE.

 

You are correct that no paperwork is necessary for dummy guns like IMA sells. This is not a dummy gun like IMA sells. It's a very different situation.

 

The tag indicates, "The receiver retains all the original portions of the receiver with the markings." That pretty well sums it up, in my opinion. All NFA Rules Apply.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

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Trooper B.A.R.,

 

 

The tag indicates, "The receiver retains all the original portions of the receiver with the markings." That pretty well sums it up, in my opinion. All NFA Rules Apply.

 

David Albert

dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

 

Not necessarily...again, there are certain rules, that if followed, allow a demilled receiver to be rebuilt into a dummy gun, just as if the rules are followed you can rebuild a cut receiver into a semi only gun. The rules are myriad and confusing, but it is possible to have a dummy gun built from an original receiver.

 

From what is presented, there is no way to tell how how this one was done...

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Hey guys, I will say this. I have been in the Class III business all my life because that is all my family ever did. Which I have done it almost 30 years.

 

Dalbert above is one of the most well respected names in the Thompson field. I would put a lot of faith in anything he says!

 

With that being said, I would ask the mods to delete this post, and I would not show that to anyone ever again. And I certainly wouldn't put it on the internet to sell, or hope people didn't know I had it. In the class III business, the ATF can rewrite the laws in anyway they seem fit it seems. I have seen things they say legal in one instance be illegal in the next.

 

If it was mine I would pull the parts off it except for the receiver, and sell the parts on gunbroker. You should get about a 800 to a 1000 for them. Get rid of the receiver. That is what I would do.

 

Trust me, you don't want the headache or frustration. And like I said, no one knows more about the Thompson than Dalbert. I have learned a lot off him over the years.

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And one more thing to add, I really studied the laws on building a semi out of a demilled full auto receiver. I wouldn't do anything, and I mean anything without a detailed approval letter from the ATF. As I have said, I have seen the ATF change their laws about a million times and something one person was allowed to do, another one couldn't.

 

Without a ATF letter in my hand. I would do anything, try anything, or buy anything. It's just too much of a risk.

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Trooper B.A.R

Hey guys, I will say this. I have been in the Class III business all my life because that is all my family ever did. Which I have done it almost 30 years.

 

Dalbert above is one of the most well respected names in the Thompson field. I would put a lot of faith in anything he says!

 

With that being said, I would ask the mods to delete this post, and I would not show that to anyone ever again. And I certainly wouldn't put it on the internet to sell, or hope people didn't know I had it. In the class III business, the ATF can rewrite the laws in anyway they seem fit it seems. I have seen things they say legal in one instance be illegal in the next.

 

If it was mine I would pull the parts off it except for the receiver, and sell the parts on gunbroker. You should get about a 800 to a 1000 for them. Get rid of the receiver. That is what I would do.

 

Trust me, you don't want the headache or frustration. And like I said, no one knows more about the Thompson than Dalbert. I have learned a lot off him over the years.

Some good words here. What I have seen on demilled receivers like SARCO, (they are also knowledgeable with what it takes to put one tookgether legally), and other parts dealers. Is many times it takes several receivers to make 1 good one. A VFW post had one made for display in the 70s from parts, of all places, they bought theirs from SARCO. What they also did was weld a rod into barrel, and weld the bolt in the open position, this was done by a Class 3 gunsmith. From outside it looked perfectly. It was tagged as such. B.A.Rs are also put together from parts, and married with a semi-auto receiver commercially available with all the data on it correctly except for the new manufacters name on it. Shotgun News had article of several issues in lenght on a Gunsmith who made one legally and met ATFs requirements.

But good advise here from some very knowledgable people.

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Some other forums very expressly prohibit anything remotely related to legal advice or questions and answers about the specific legality of NFA items, it is done that way to protect all involved, especially those who choose to go with the "that's legal" advice given by often anonymous posters who may or my not have any idea of the true legality of the item at issue.

 

Those Forums also say to contact the ATF, they also note that individual letters from the ATF, specific to the individual item in question, are all that can truly be relied upon when it comes to legality. That has already been stated here.

 

Regardless of one's feelings about the ATF, they are the one and only authority on the legality of the item in question. An identified poster here gave you an opinion, it appears he IS an authority on this, if I were the original poster I would heed his advice and consider having an attorney contact the ATF for an opinion on this item. The ATF can check their records and tell you or your attorney if this is a papered gun or not, maybe it already is, maybe not, maybe it is a perfectly legal replica too. Maybe you want to have your local law enforcement sit on the gun in their armory or evidence room while you check on the the legalities of it all. Don't be

too quick to believe all law enforcement are out to confiscate and cut up guns, they aren't. Maybe an attorney would be willing to safeguard it too.

 

I would use caution tho, and weigh if this is worth the potential trouble, no matter what the consensus on this forum is. It is a very technical issue with many variables that can make a lot of difference.

 

Good luck.

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Trooper B.A.R

Just add one thing, me and the wife had a trust made to be able to buy, and own Class 3 firearms. There are lawyers that specialize in this field, as ours does. One can contact them, they are always happy to answer any questions. Cost is low and hassle free for a trust. Also seems that paperwork, approval comes back faster.

I also have never had a bad experience when contacting ATF on questions, nor felt intimidated.

Again, of all the different sites I've been on, this seems to have the most intelligent and knowledgeable of them all. Its a privilidge to be amongst such.

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