ThompsonSavage Posted June 20, 2013 Share #26 Posted June 20, 2013 The second hint is the red printing on the QM tag as this denotes an anti-gas treated item that was manufactured that way. Do you have any sources to back up this claim? I have seen many items that were not 'gas treated' which have red labels. For example: 1937 wool trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rambob Posted June 20, 2013 Author Share #27 Posted June 20, 2013 ThompsonSavage, I am trying to recall where I heard the statement that a red QM tag denoted an anti-gas treated item. In my own collection I only have two items with red QM tags and both of them indeed have the anti-gas treatment applied. See second item below which is a treated wool hood. And in my collecting travels I never happened on an untreated item with a red QM tag to sway this idea. However, with your statement that you have seen "many" non-treated items with red QM tags, then I will gladly retract my statement as misleading. Thanks for clarifying this point. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThompsonSavage Posted June 20, 2013 Share #28 Posted June 20, 2013 You don't have to retract your statement, I was just curious as to where you found that information since I have never heard of it. As to the red printed labels I have seen parkas, raincoats, hoods, wool shirts and trousers, jackets, HBT's, mountain trousers/jackets... Mountain trousers as for sale by member M1Helmet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Marine Posted June 20, 2013 Share #29 Posted June 20, 2013 What a great looking collection of HBTs. Thanks for posting them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgawne Posted June 20, 2013 Share #30 Posted June 20, 2013 Two comments other than nice stuff and thanks for talking the time to write it all up: 1. Instead of using first pattern second, etc. I really do prefer to use the sped numbers as hey are a far better determination of order and date and modification. We did an article in Militaria a while back going through all the specs and noting the small changes from change to change. This avoids the possibility of missing something, and allows you to spot any real odd balls. It's always best to use the original nomenclature than invent a system. So they should run 45, 45A, 45B, 45C etc. There's no trick to the progression- it's all in the specs. 2. Cammo uniforms. I drive myself crazy with this but popular opinion is wrong. These were withdrawn from service long before june 44 as they didn't really work all that well. This is why you see them issued stateside as substitutes for standard HBTs. Some ended up in France and were issued to a few units, the 2nd Division wore them out to Brest in Sept 44, meaning there was no recall of them for friendly fire on a wide basis. I've researched the heck out of this, and after looking into every single place I can think of (especially the 2nd armored records) I cannot find any actual reference to the problem. The Army history people who maintain the research records of the green books say there is nothing in them to back up the claim in the book, and they do not know where it comes from. I have had two people tell me they have seen a record in the archives indicating the blue on blue, but to date neither has been able to actually produce it, and I spent 2 days going through where one 'thought' he had seen it with no luck. My own theory is that an estimated 10-20% of casualties are fratricide. Sad to say but true. What better way to justify how you accidentally shot one of your own guys but to blame it on the uniform. Again this was all written up in a multi-part article on the history of WW2 Army cammo in Militaria Magazine. And again, none to date has been able to actually show me an original reference this comes from. However I have copies of the original "make cammo a limited standard until it we run out" paperwork, as well as photographic proof it was used up into Brest. I also spent 2 weeks in 2AD vets in 1982 and not one of them ever heard the story, and Mark Bando who heavily researched the time period it supposedly happened in never found it as well. I'd still love to see where this all came from, but to sate there is nothing solid to back it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rambob Posted June 20, 2013 Author Share #31 Posted June 20, 2013 jgawne, Thank you for the enlightening information. I have been looking at QM tags forever and I guess I really never read them and understood the details. The spec number as an identification mechanism does seem to make sense with what I was seeing with the items in my collection. Especially, the two jackets with ink stamps on the gas flap, which share spec 45E. I guess the only thing that surprises me is that the government gave manufacturers such leeway from the official "Cast in Concrete" procurement specification. Just look at the color and pocket differences of some of the jackets and trousers, sharing the same specification number. Its almost as if the government wrote "Item to be made from green HBT material, and to include two pockets" and let the manufacturers fill in the numerous blanks. Maybe wartime dictated this due for the demand of the materials to cloth our soldiers during WWII. This is a subject I would like to explore more. Secondly, thank you for taking time to give us the scoop on the camo HBTs. I wrote this article more to spur discussion within the forum and to maybe learn more about my collection. You have really helped to further mine and other members knowledge on this subject. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThompsonSavage Posted June 20, 2013 Share #32 Posted June 20, 2013 Revised edition Jackets Spec No. 45Pre-war design, light OD, waist adjusting tabs, no gas flap, hem band, no provision for attaching a hood, small pockets with 'cut off corners'Spec No. 45B1942 design, light OD, expanding cargo pockets on the chest, no hem band, no gas flap, no provision for attaching a hood, no waist adjusting tabs Spec No. 45B (Special)Same spec as Spec No. 45B but with gas flap and buttons to attach hood Spec No. 45D1943, same as Spec No. 45B (Special) but now in OD7, variations of pocket pleats have been observed with different makers (In my opinion the pleats were a variation, not a new pattern. It seems the choice of pleat was optional for manufacturers) Spec No. 375 (Camo HBT)Resembles Spec No. 45D, hidden buttons, reinforced elbows, pockets on green side Spec No. 45EBasically the same as Spec No. 45D but with simplified pockets (smaller size, squared or 'cut off corner' design), has small pencil sleeve inside pocket, very late introduction date (if issued at all during WWII)Trousers Spec No. 6-254 (same as trousers, cotton, khaki)Pre-war design, light OD, white lining, no thigh pockets, 'narrow' shape Spec No. 42A (1942) and 42C (3/10/43)Light OD, expanding thigh pockets, gas flap, 'baggy' shape Spec No. 42C (OD7) with revision 1/15/44 (Spec P.Q.D. No. 339, P.O. No. 3954) Same as Spec No. 42A and 42C but in OD7, variations in pocket pleats (middle/rear pleat) Spec 374 (6/3/44)Camo trousers, 1943, ankle tabs, hidden buttons (except waist), knee patches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rambob Posted June 20, 2013 Author Share #33 Posted June 20, 2013 ThompsonSavage, That is a wonderful HBT specification synopsis you submitted. It is a real keeper and I appreciate you sharing it was us. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jprostak Posted June 21, 2013 Share #34 Posted June 21, 2013 I have to agree with Jon about Spec #s. There is a real progression to the specifications. That is really the way to organize all US military clothing. Since 1876 the US Army Quartermaster Department has had a specification for all clothing item and camp equipage. And after 1918 all of the soldiers individual equipment. The US Army QM had a specification for all clothing items. I know that sometimes we see an item that does not conform, but it is not likely that a contractor in the WWII era would just go off and do his own thing. A standard clothing item had a specification that was between 3 and 8 pages long.There really is no room for doing as you pleased. The on site QM inspector would have had a field day rejecting clothing. As for the Trousers with the zipper, you would need to go to the Archives and find all the correspondence from the QM to the contractor and you would probably find a letter asking , (with an addendom to the contract for the price difference between buttons and zippers) that they make so many trousers with zippers. If you think that the US Army took whatever the contractors gave them, you need to spend a little time at the National Archives and see the letters telling contractors how much they needed to fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etienne Posted June 21, 2013 Share #35 Posted June 21, 2013 Very interesting and comprehensive topic, illustrated with very nice coats and trousers ... thanks for sharing About the camo pattern, I'll second JGawne as even in the PTO, the camo utilities were discarded, because they were non-effective (and hot). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rambob Posted June 22, 2013 Author Share #36 Posted June 22, 2013 Thanks everyone for the kind words and comments on this post. I really appreciate you all taking the time to read it. I am still curious if anyone else has seen the weird, white, sticky tape, type cutter tags that I show on the fourth jacket in my post. They are the tags that have a 22 on them. Also, still looking for any new insight on the "What the hell are These" trousers with the zipper. Thanks, Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThompsonSavage Posted June 22, 2013 Share #37 Posted June 22, 2013 I am still curious if anyone else has seen the weird, white, sticky tape, type cutter tags that I show on the fourth jacket in my post. Yes, these are basically the same as cutter tags. They ensure the continuity of size, shape and color of each individual cloth piece that will eventually become a complete garment. Here is one with '16' on the tags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Flage Guy Posted June 22, 2013 Share #38 Posted June 22, 2013 Bob, thanks for this thread and all the primo shots of your collection. I received an education here; there is a little-known variant in the Frogskin patterned HBT, beside the 2 slight differences in the "PacMen". Your camo Trousers carry this variant, shown below- "normal" at left, "weird" at right... Up until yesterday, the only time I had seen the brown spot with the "hook" on the left side was on several Jackets in various collections made by Woodbury Mills. Your Southern Athletic Trousers are a first-time encounter for me. Trivial, I know, but this variant print doesn't show up often at all. Interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig johnson Posted June 22, 2013 Share #39 Posted June 22, 2013 Thanks for taking the time to write this. My Dad has several sets of Mint HBT. Will have to take a look and see if there is anything worth posting. Didnt know a big hoard was found in Europe. He has owned them for many years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rambob Posted June 22, 2013 Author Share #40 Posted June 22, 2013 Flage Guy, I am really happy that we have a supreme resource like you on this forum. The little detail about the "hook" is the kind of thing I just eat up as I am really into an items different variations and try to collect them all. Just to make sure, I went down and inspected the camo trousers again and every one of that particular brown printing has the hook on it. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rambob Posted June 26, 2013 Author Share #41 Posted June 26, 2013 After looking at the specifications provided and comparing my collection to it, it looks like I am missing a 42A pair of trousers along with a 42B and 42B (Special) jacket. I guess my HBT quest is not quite over yet, but the hunt is half the fun. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetteraf Posted October 2, 2013 Share #42 Posted October 2, 2013 If you think that the US Army took whatever the contractors gave them, you need to spend a little time at the National Archives and see the letters telling contractors how much they needed to fix. While I'm sure that most items non-compliant with a specification were rejected, I believe that minor variations were often overlooked or allowed to pass. This variation is still common today. For example, I have seen ripstop Airman Battle Uniform trousers with three different interior pocket fabrics on the shelf at the same time at clothing sales (ripstop, camo twill, and tan twill). I've seen a similar variety of waistband fabrics; it seems random which lot from which manufacturer has which fabric. One possible reason this is that the Air Force is currently in a transition from twill uniforms to ripstop. That means a lot of leftover twill fabric that can find its way into ripstop uniforms in hidden places like the waistband or pocket. All this variety is taking place in a relaxed manufaturing environment for a service that is not growing. Imagine during WWII when lots were much bigger and a spec might change 5 times in 4 years, plus experimental batches. I can see some overlap in both design and materials slipping through the inspection process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmc1945 Posted October 29, 2013 Share #43 Posted October 29, 2013 Awesome work, Bob. Thanks for sharing your collection with us. I am still in the process of finding some good basic examples (seems nearly impossible to me to find examples with the tags still present/readable)! Kyle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgawne Posted February 22, 2014 Share #44 Posted February 22, 2014 As for the differences in material and such. There are three answers. 1. The specs or follow on correspondence from the Army sometimes stated substitute material that was allowed to be used. 2. The army inspector and company worked out a substitution that both could agree on- often when there was a shortage of the item the inspectors could have more leeway, as well as if there was a stock of different material that might otherwise go to waste. 3. The company used a substitute and it was not OK'd by the Army, so it was never actually accepted, and ended up in a warehouse and being sold off after the war as surplus (even though it wasn't), or taken home by employees, or whatever. That's why you see things like pocket material be different- it didn't matter much to the army what the unseen material was, and if there was surplus of something they were not going to use, the inspectors could decide it was just as strong/good and save the Army time by not waiting for the right stuff, money by using material on hand that would not mean more transportation and mill work. The army may have been picky about their stuff, but they weren't stupid, and with a war on they did try and conserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbinekid Posted February 25, 2014 Share #45 Posted February 25, 2014 Where do HBT with OD painted metal 13 star buttons enter the equation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rambob Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share #46 Posted February 28, 2014 From the HBT clothing examples I have in my collection, the 13 star buttons are used on the majority of them. So I would say that they were the preferred buttons used for the HBT manufacture. After all they were very simple/fast to install which required no sewing or thread. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindit Posted January 3, 2015 Share #47 Posted January 3, 2015 This is a great discussion--thanks! I thought I would add my two-cents here: Re the 45D Pattern--I have a mint one dated April 8, 1943 and is it clearly a sage green color and not OD 7. This 45D example is identical to my 45B patterns, except that it does not have the horizontal seam, and small pleats on the upper back. (All my identified 45B patterns have that horizontal seam and small pleats on the upper back just like the first 45 pattern). One other small variation I noticed on a couple of examples: in two that I have (including my father's original) the button holes on the ends of the sleeves are sewn together so that the sleeve opening is smaller. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rambob Posted January 3, 2015 Author Share #48 Posted January 3, 2015 Joe, Thanks for supplying info on the specification 45B HBT Jackets. These are the illusive examples that I am still looking for to fill out my HBT jacket collection. Could you please post some photos of a 45B jacket with the seams and pleats you are referring to and a photo of any intact QM tag would be nice also. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldabewla Posted August 10, 2015 Share #49 Posted August 10, 2015 Bob, Just picked up this mint HBT jacket, it's the spec No. 45B 1942 design and has the rarer 13 star Army doughnut buttons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldabewla Posted August 10, 2015 Share #50 Posted August 10, 2015 next Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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