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P41 Set


HattonWWII

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Can someone help me with this? Is it all original? Too me it looks like permanent marker under the name and on top of the chevron but I could be wrong. Any help appreciated.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/179453-fs-p41-named-jacket-and-pants/

 

Always looking for quality/interesting original, WWII M1 helmets with leather chinstraps intact as well :excl:

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HolyHappiness

Have you tried sending a PM to the seller?

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To truely understand freedom, one must know the place, clutch the earth, and honor the sacrifice.

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I have yes y? I was askin for other opinions.

Always looking for quality/interesting original, WWII M1 helmets with leather chinstraps intact as well :excl:

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Williamsbriank 82

The HBT's themselves look really nice all the ink is still nice and dark, the name above the pocket and inside the pants are good. I've never seen chevrons that dark i'd be cautious. If you compare the cheverons to the EGA they are relitivly close in fading, that's a good sign. If the cheverons were really dark and the EGA really light i'd say no.

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Thank you very much for your help yes the chevron is what I was having the most trouble which as I'm really new too these.

Always looking for quality/interesting original, WWII M1 helmets with leather chinstraps intact as well :excl:

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1stusmcdiv42

Thats not a P-41 uniform, that's a post WWII P-47. Its characterized by the chest pocket which has a rounded bottom and tapered inward opening. When compared to any WWII production jacket the differences are easy to see I cant speak for the pants not being P-41s though, they very well could be, but the jacket is definitely a P-47, no doubt.

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Williamsbriank 82

Thats not a P-41 uniform, that's a post WWII P-47. Its characterized by the chest pocket which has a rounded bottom and tapered inward opening. When compared to any WWII production jacket the differences are easy to see I cant speak for the pants not being P-41s though, they very well could be, but the jacket is definitely a P-47, no doubt.

 

 

I've never heard of p47 nomenclature, so i looked it up in grunt gear. Tulkoff says nothong of a p47, which is fine cause grunt gear does cover wwii, but on page 10 it has a picture of two p41's one with the square pocket and khaki thread and the other with green thread and a round pocket. Tulkoff states the round pocket was an early war manufacture, also shows the tag with a 1942 date on it. then on page 16 he shows another example this one is unit marked to a sergeant in the fifth marines on iwo jima, It has a round pocket with khaki thread. sorry i couldn't get the photo's up but some more insite on this would be great, and your reference for p47 nomenclature.

 

Thanks

Brian

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1stusmcdiv42

The P47 "pattern" jacket/ uniform was a type of mystery for Marine collectors for many many years. It was a mystery because some collectors were puzzled a some strange differences in P41 jackets that seemed to be popping up from only post WWII veterans possessions and didn't match up with any known production variations in WWII. This stayed a mystery until someone found some procurement document stating that the marine corps ordered P41 uniforms post WWII and on the form referred to them as P47 uniforms because they were ordered in 1947 (if someone can elaborate on this I would be grateful). Here is what I can offer you

The P47 uniform seems to actually be a P41 uniform and in my opinion it is for all intensive purposes a P41 uniform. However what makes it a P47 is that between WWII and Korea for some reason the Marine corps decided they needed more P41 uniforms to supplement there existing stocks. So they had some made in this inter war period. When these uniforms were produced they were produced to the same specs as the P41 uniform, however slight variation in production (same as WWII uniforms) produced a subtle but distinct difference in the pocket shape of these post war jackets. I cant give any credence to the thread color being post war because as we have seen with alot of WWII equipment the thread color always seems to be some various shade of khaki or green.

However the breast pocket shape is what sets this uniform apart. The top of the pocket on any post war produced P41 (P47) jacket tapers inward at the tops opening, the bottom is also rounded;now I don't mean early WWII P41 jacket round where the edges of the pocket are round as opposed the to the latter jackets where the edges are more squared off, but the entire bottom of the jacket pocket has this distinct round shape only found on jackets produced after WWII. You can see the jacket in the link you posted has a very tapered top opening and the entire bottom of the jacket is rounded as opposed to mainly the edges.

It can be very hard to tell a post war jacket from a WWII one, but they do exist.

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The P47 "pattern" jacket/ uniform was a type of mystery for Marine collectors for many many years. It was a mystery because some collectors were puzzled a some strange differences in P41 jackets that seemed to be popping up from only post WWII veterans possessions and didn't match up with any known production variations in WWII. This stayed a mystery until someone found some procurement document stating that the marine corps ordered P41 uniforms post WWII and on the form referred to them as P47 uniforms because they were ordered in 1947 (if someone can elaborate on this I would be grateful). Here is what I can offer you

 

The P47 uniform seems to actually be a P41 uniform and in my opinion it is for all intensive purposes a P41 uniform. However what makes it a P47 is that between WWII and Korea for some reason the Marine corps decided they needed more P41 uniforms to supplement there existing stocks. So they had some made in this inter war period. When these uniforms were produced they were produced to the same specs as the P41 uniform, however slight variation in production (same as WWII uniforms) produced a subtle but distinct difference in the pocket shape of these post war jackets. I cant give any credence to the thread color being post war because as we have seen with alot of WWII equipment the thread color always seems to be some various shade of khaki or green.

 

However the breast pocket shape is what sets this uniform apart. The top of the pocket on any post war produced P41 (P47) jacket tapers inward at the tops opening, the bottom is also rounded;now I don't mean early WWII P41 jacket round where the edges of the pocket are round as opposed the to the latter jackets where the edges are more squared off, but the entire bottom of the jacket pocket has this distinct round shape only found on jackets produced after WWII. You can see the jacket in the link you posted has a very tapered top opening and the entire bottom of the jacket is rounded as opposed to mainly the edges.

 

It can be very hard to tell a post war jacket from a WWII one, but they do exist.

 

I must disagree as there's some post-war manufactured USMC utilities that don't have this particular round pocket ... I had one, made by Mirabelli if I remeber well. I'll try to find a photo in my database.

 

So if the rounded pocket is the P47 feature, OK but then there have been post-war P41s without that feature ;)

Collecting USMC AEF 1917-18 & PTO 1941-45, US Navy PTO 1941-45.

 

Most seeked items : USMC dog tags from 1915 to 1945, USN corpsman dog tags and other identified items, USN id'd M1 helmets.



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HolyHappiness

I must say, I learn something everyday. Both Brian and I were clueless of the existence of the P47. We had contacted numerous fellow collectors on the P47 issue and they have never heard of it. I have no reason to conclude that the P47 didn't exist and remains a fairly large mystery among most collectors (as you have stated). I recommend that we place this thread in the references tab for future reference.

Thanks 1stusmcdiv42 for the clarification!

Nathan

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To truely understand freedom, one must know the place, clutch the earth, and honor the sacrifice.

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1stusmcdiv42

 

I must disagree as there's some post-war manufactured USMC utilities that don't have this particular round pocket ... I had one, made by Mirabelli if I remeber well. I'll try to find a photo in my database.

 

So if the rounded pocket is the P47 feature, OK but then there have been post-war P41s without that feature ;)

As I said earlier the P47 is in my opinion just a post war P41 jacket and because of its reference as a P47 on some USMC documents it has thus been dubbed the P47 uniform by collectors. Now does that make it brand new uniform? No its still a P41 uniform, just one made post war. Some of these post war jackets have manufacturing differences between them just as WWII manufactured coats do which can muck up identifying them. Now your "non rounded pocket" P-41 jacket may still be considered a P47 if it was part of the post war ordering and then cataloged/ referenced to as such by the Marine Corps. But even if it is part of that post war order those jackets to my knowledge all still referred to as P41 jackets when issued as used by the Corps.

 

Now since your coat does not have a characteristic rounded pocket that can simply be chalked up to the fact that every manufacture of military equipment had variations on how an item they are contracted for was constructed. I have seen many "P47" jackets that have very square looking bottoms compared to other "P47 jackets that have very round bottoms. However what seems to be universal in all post war jackets is that the top of the pocket tapers inward where WWII manufactured ones do not do that. I'm sure someone out there will show up with one that breaks this rule, so lets say 9.9999999 times out of 10 this is the case. The fact is that the jackets construction will provide you with all the information you need to tell if its post war or WWII.

 

Now I fell like this thread may get into an argument over whether or not these jackets can be classified as a P47 or should still be called a P41 jacket, personally I dont care call them what ever you want. I like to call them "Post war Manufactured P47 Pattern 41 Uniforms" this seems to satisfy everyone by acknowledging that the jacket is a post war P41 that is referred to by USMC post war ordering forms as the P47.

 

Now considering this thread started with someone posting a question/ link about a uniform that had misidentified the jacket as a WWII jacket what should be evaluated here is that post war jackets are often passed off as WWII jackets and this should be easy to fix considering most of the time the construction of the jacket can help in its identification.

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Now I fell like this thread may get into an argument over whether or not these jackets can be classified as a P47 or should still be called a P41 jacket, personally I dont care call them what ever you want. I like to call them "Post war Manufactured P47 Pattern 41 Uniforms" this seems to satisfy everyone by acknowledging that the jacket is a post war P41 that is referred to by USMC post war ordering forms as the P47.

 

Now considering this thread started with someone posting a question/ link about a uniform that had misidentified the jacket as a WWII jacket what should be evaluated here is that post war jackets are often passed off as WWII jackets and this should be easy to fix considering most of the time the construction of the jacket can help in its identification.

 

Oh no, certainly not ... I'm not trying to argue about what is a P41 or a P47, it's just a collector's thing ;)

 

I call them post-war P41 but as long as we speak about the same thing, everything's fine. I just wanted to add that not all postwar P41s aka P47 had the rounded pocket ... it's important because some collector would want to buy some postwar coat being sure it's a ww2 one just because it has a square pocket :blink:

Collecting USMC AEF 1917-18 & PTO 1941-45, US Navy PTO 1941-45.

 

Most seeked items : USMC dog tags from 1915 to 1945, USN corpsman dog tags and other identified items, USN id'd M1 helmets.



donation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gifdonation2017.gifdonation2018.gif

 

 

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That is wild, I had a P41 set named to J.J Kamanski that I sold about a week ago, but this seems to be a different uniform!

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/166744-p41-jacket-and-trousers/

 

You're right, different set, same Marine ;)

Collecting USMC AEF 1917-18 & PTO 1941-45, US Navy PTO 1941-45.

 

Most seeked items : USMC dog tags from 1915 to 1945, USN corpsman dog tags and other identified items, USN id'd M1 helmets.



donation2013.gifdonation2014.gifdonation2015.gifdonation2016.gifdonation2017.gifdonation2018.gif

 

 

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