1980s gear questions

[Rakkasan187]

I arrived in Germany in February 1987, the issued field jacket was still being worn in garrison and in the field. Gortex was just starting to become available and I purchased my Gortex jacket and I never wore my field jacket again. I still had to maintain 2 of them for inspection purposes but I wore GORTEX from March 1987 until I retired in 2005.

 

Leigh

[Sgt_Rock_EasyCo]

The only foreign ration that I ate was during my time in Germany. 1/48 inf 3rd AD did a reforger exercise with the Belgian army (Roaring lion 1984 ?) in the North Central part of the country. We were fed for the most part by the Belgians and while the meal was edible it left a lot to be desired,this was my 1 and only time eating canned cow tongue.The daily meal came in 1 box and it was loaded with crackers,condenced milk and 2 cans of food,the best part was the fresh bread and butter they gave us. Any former members of the Belgian Army remember this exercise?

 

Ditto!

 

The Belgians had bags and bags of fresh baked rolls. The exterior was hard and crunchy but the inside was soft as butter. I traded MRE's, or flat out paid them cash for their bread. I ate bread for a week.

 

Rock

[Sgt_Rock_EasyCo]

I have a question for those that served stateside and overseas. Did you ever wear your field jacket in the field. The only place I ever did was Germany. Ft Polk and Ft Richardson were a no go,it was parkas only. I remember that they took away our field pants,wool shirts and overwhites while in Germany.

 

M-65 Green field jackets and BDU Jackets. The older guys had some M51's hanging around and I snagged one because I liked the collar (no hood in it).

 

The wear of any and all uniforms was always based upon the Company command and SOP. As long as EVERYONE wore the same uniform (dress right dress, as they said) then it was good. The uniform-of-the-day was given to all of us. If one person was going to wear a field jacket, it's because everyone was going to wear one.

 

To answer the question, at Fort Benning we wore them, at Fort Bragg we wore them and then again when I was in Berlin we wore them. In Berlin, especially during the cold season, we wore M-65's, and if it was cold and snowy we'd wear them under our Parka's, but that was optional but sometimes necessary due to the sheer cold. If we were moving on foot, most often we didn't wear any field jackets because we'd be hauling-arse and would build up body heat. If that ws the case, and we'd be staying in the field, the field jacket or parka would be stowed in the top of the rucksack for a time when your body would start to cool. The build-up of sweat inside cold weather gear was a no-no as it would often lead to cold weather injuries. Peeling off and adding on layers was essential to maintain warmth without sweating.

 

The M-65 nylon liner was fantastic for wear in colder weather. At Bragg and Berlin I carried one in my pocket. I'd put it on over my uniform blouse when static and could peel it off in seconds and push it into my side pocket. The same with the poncho and poncho liner of the 1980's. The thin poncho combined with the poncho liner was a fabulous sleeping system in all but very, very cold weather. They could be rolled up quickly and into a small ball that fit inside your side pocket.

 

Rock

[Fender Rhodes]

We used to have woodland M65 field jackets with liners. When goretex became standard issue, we turned in the M65 but were allowed to keep the liner (without signing for it). I still have my liner. Like Rock said, you could ball the cho liner or field jacket liner up and put it in your cargo pocket in a snap. If we were close to the flagpole we used to wear the field jacket liner under our cammie blouse. If we were in the field, we wore it over the blouse.

[ScottG]

I wore my filed jacket at Ft. Polk, I never got a Gortex parka until 2002. We did have the old cold weather parkas but rarely used them. Scott.

[Sgt_Rock_EasyCo]

The Gortex Jackets had just come out during the mid-1980's and only the Lt's had them. The old NCO's didn't bother. One our 2/505 Lt's got the Gortex jacket and then when he went to the Ranger Batt's his Rangers would be wearing just their standard uniform when it was cold, he'd be wearing the Gortex Jacket while telling them to suck it up. He was a short guy and would go for weekend ruck marches with a two-by-four as a weapon. Someone might remember him as he wasn't exactly the most popular Officer in the unit.

 

Guys from the Ranger Batt's didn't care for him either. For that matter they didn't like Michael Steele much as he was a throwback and did some very odd, but old-school stuff.

 

Rock

[Kration]

"poncho liner of the 1980's. The thin poncho combined with the poncho liner was a fabulous sleeping system in all but very, very cold weather. They could be rolled up quickly and into a small ball that fit inside your side pocket."

 

Rock

Ha ha.. I've been using a poncho liner since the mid 80's.. still use one to this day as a blanket.

 

Kration

[Sgt_Rock_EasyCo]

Ha ha.. I've been using a poncho liner since the mid 80's.. still use one to this day as a blanket.

 

Kration

 

 

It was through experience that I learned how to stay lightweight without sacrificing protection.

 

In the Jungle I used to carry a mosquito head net, wool glove inserts, boot blousers, and said poncho/liner and field jacket liner. In a static situation I'd place the head net over my patrol cap and tuck it between my jungle fatigue shirt and t-shirt, giving a barrier to bugs. The wool gloves would go over my hands and over the sleeve of the fatigue. I'd blouse the lower pant leg and wear it low over the top of the jungle boots. Bugs had a hard time getting through any of that so I managed to avoid bug bites even when sleeping on the Jungle floor. That bug juice seemed more like a way to keep you smelly and sticky so we carried spray if we couldn't cover up- but the build up of sweat usually washed that away.

 

I have one BDU thin poncho, but it's more 1990's and one modern poncho liner. All my original erdl and woodland stuff is three sheets to the wind.

 

Rock

[fallout]

Ok thanks for the help, might get some 80s British rations. New questions, first, what is the proper way to fold the shelter half and poncho? Second, my main impression is a light infantry in FGR(West Germany) during Able Archer 83(November 1983) and was wondering if on a patrol the alice pack would be brought correct? What year was the foam sleeping mat introduced it was around in 1986 as in BEAST's post #200 it was there. And if the Sleeping mat was in use would it be taken? Next it would most likely be cold in Germany in November so the m65 jacket would be worn or as many have said the liner would be worn and the jacket carried, would the woodland m65 or green m65 jacket be more common as the woodland camo was still new I have both so it does not matter. As it is cold would the sleeping bag be carried or no and what was the standard sleeping bag at that time, any pictures? Thanks for all of the help so far and all of the help to come.

 

Also where did they clip the M58A1 decon kit?

[Sgt_Rock_EasyCo]

Ok thanks for the help, might get some 80s British rations. New questions, first, what is the proper way to fold the shelter half and poncho? Second, my main impression is a light infantry in FGR(West Germany) during Able Archer 83(November 1983) and was wondering if on a patrol the alice pack would be brought correct? What year was the foam sleeping mat introduced it was around in 1986 as in BEAST's post #200 it was there. And if the Sleeping mat was in use would it be taken? Next it would most likely be cold in Germany in November so the m65 jacket would be worn or as many have said the liner would be worn and the jacket carried, would the woodland m65 or green m65 jacket be more common as the woodland camo was still new I have both so it does not matter. As it is cold would the sleeping bag be carried or no and what was the standard sleeping bag at that time, any pictures? Thanks for all of the help so far and all of the help to come.

 

Also where did they clip the M58A1 decon kit?

 

Attach the poncho liner to the poncho then fold it until it's about the width of a dollar bill then roll it like a cinnamon roll, applying pressure to remove al the air. It should fit inside your BDU side pocket. The Alice Pack (Small, Med or Large) would be appropriate but most of us purchased a Large Alice Pack. On many training exercises you could carry whatever you wanted for bedding, keeping in mind the Mission at hand. The Mission, Enemy, Troops, Time, Terrain and Weather will dictate what you take with you.

 

For shorter patrols you will not take a Pack, but ground it in the company area.

For longer movements, or larger company movements you will take all of your gear.

 

For some training excercises where al gear must be carried, you would take all of it including the bedroll and even the matress pad. The Matress Pad was usually left behind by me because it was cumbersome, hard to roll up quickly, and got caught on branches and underbrush too easily. The only time I used one was in a Tentage situation.

 

A mid-1980's era would usually entail a Woodland M-65. In the early 1980's the green M-65 was phased out so a few veteran troops had them but they stood out in the woods so they were usually not worn. At some point they were phased out, I believe in the mid-1980's.

 

The field jacket liner was a luxury item and wearing it was a bit of a gamble. Rookie Soldiers dress for how they felt in the early morning, some of them putting on the wool sweater because they were cold. Veteran Soldiers would wear a -shirt and BDU Blouse and suffer the early morning cold because once the marching started the amount of heat and sweat, regardless of how cold it was, would be fairly immense. Keep the field jacket liner in the other BDU pocket and wear it once you cool off and need a quick method of insulating that can be removed and stowed quickly.

 

Early in my career we were on a competetive field exercise and a veteran Paratrooper took off his boots and I asked him if I should do the same and he said yes....bad move. Only take off your uniform pieces to replace them with dry ones, then replace them quickly. Only take out items from your pockets or pack that can be replaced quickly. Speed and efficiency are critical so that your unit can react to any situation. Remember all the soldiers during November 1951 that were caught asleep in their sleeping bags with boots off during the Korean War? Many died in place as they were poorly trained, poorly led and only took into account how they felt at the moment. One moment you will feel secure but cold, and put on a bunch of cold weather gear and the next moment you are receiving simulated artillery fire and must move like crazy for a few miles or more and you will become a HEAT CASUALTY in freezing cold weather.

 

As I remember, the Decon Kit was kept in a small plastic container in the rear pocket of the Protective Mask Carrying Bag. Despite the uncomfortable position of the Pro Mask Carrier, it was always carried on every field exercise! It rubbed your leg raw, was bulky, always seemed to throw off your balance as you walked and flopped around but it was always carried except on very small patrols, and often it was carried then.

 

Rock

 

Rock

[fallout]

Also what was the sling used for the m16, I have seen the black one and green ones. I don't thing they had the 3 point slings in the 80s right? Any picture are helpful.

[ScottG]

From 1985 on I was always issued a black sling. That being said, we had green ones in use through the 90s. Scott

[fallout]

Is this the green one?

 

[Sgt_Rock_EasyCo]

Is this the green one?

 

Truth be told, I don't remember the color of the sling for our M16A's, I thought it was black for some reason. Many of us removed the slings, adding duct tape for the silencing effect and then purchased or pilferted the M60 Machine Gun sling because it was longer, padded and gave us enough room to maneuver the weapon, or sling it easily. Many removed the sling and covered the swivels with duct tape (stealth, noise discipline) and just used a single piece of Paracord that was tied to your gear to keep the weapon from being lost.

 

I do believe that very, very few guys in the 505th used the original M16 sling and when I went to Berlin I took my M60 sling with me.

 

So if you want to be different, but accurate, purchase an M60 Machine Gun sling and clip it to your front swivel and then wrap it around the small portion of the rear butt stock. There were many different methods of attaching the 60 sling to the M16. around the front sight, then clipped to the rear sling swivel, or visa versa. Any method so that during a march yoru weapon would be slung and secure but in the firing position.

 

Rock

 

[BEAST]

 

Is this the green one?

 

Truth be told, I don't remember the color of the sling for our M16A's, I thought it was black for some reason. Many of us removed the slings, adding duct tape for the silencing effect and then purchased or pilferted the M60 Machine Gun sling because it was longer, padded and gave us enough room to maneuver the weapon, or sling it easily. Many removed the sling and covered the swivels with duct tape (stealth, noise discipline) and just used a single piece of Paracord that was tied to your gear to keep the weapon from being lost.

 

I do believe that very, very few guys in the 505th used the original M16 sling and when I went to Berlin I took my M60 sling with me.

 

So if you want to be different, but accurate, purchase an M60 Machine Gun sling and clip it to your front swivel and then wrap it around the small portion of the rear butt stock. There were many different methods of attaching the 60 sling to the M16. around the front sight, then clipped to the rear sling swivel, or visa versa. Any method so that during a march yoru weapon would be slung and secure but in the firing position.

 

Rock

 

 

 

 

For attaching to the rear sling swivel, I made a loop with 550 cord and attached the front of the sling to the front sight.

 

There was also a green nylon version of the M16 sling. One thing to remember about the 1980s was that it was also a transitional period from the m16A1 to the M16A2. On the M16A1s, you could see all three different colors of slings. On the A2, I think you would most likely see the black cotton sling.

 

Since we are on weapons, don't forget about the M203. As a Platoon Leader, the 203 was my weapon of choice.

[Rakkasan187]

I also had what was called a jungle adpater that I used on my M16 when I was in Panama in 1986. This was nothing more than an adapter that you put through the front sight "triangle". This gave you the freedom of moving the black sling from under the weapon to the top side of the weapon. Then the sling that attached under the butt stock was then removed and placed around the butt stock.

 

When I have a chance I will post pictures of what the sling adapter looked like. Also I used an M60 sling after I "obtained one"..

 

Leigh.

[Sgt_Rock_EasyCo]

Let me be a little clear on the M60 sling issue: I had to try to remember back and what we did wa attach the front of the slng to the front sight triangle and then clipped the metal rear clip to the rear sling swivel on our M16. Placing your weapon over your shoulder and you can hold the weapn upright. If you release the weapon and let it hang, it will flip sideways because the front sling is attached to the front sight (top) but the rear is attached to the bottom of the weapon. This is a mere inconvenience as you're holding your weapon most of the time except when climbing.

 

One reason for *not& getting too creative is that when you came in from the field you had to turn in your weapon CLEAN! No tape residue, scratches, etc.. You were responsible for your weapon and any damage. The M60 sling was comfortable, long, convenient, cheap and used by most of us.

 

The standard issue sling was too short, too slim, and wasn't adaptable. It could only be used for Drill and Ceremony for stacking weapons or in Sling Arms; We didn't use the sling arms mode except on rare occasions. When carrying your Weapon you were all business, all the time.

 

Rock

[BEAST]

Let me be a little clear on the M60 sling issue: I had to try to remember back and what we did wa attach the front of the slng to the front sight triangle and then clipped the metal rear clip to the rear sling swivel on our M16. Placing your weapon over your shoulder and you can hold the weapn upright. If you release the weapon and let it hang, it will flip sideways because the front sling is attached to the front sight (top) but the rear is attached to the bottom of the weapon. This is a mere inconvenience as you're holding your weapon most of the time except when climbing.

 

One reason for *not& getting too creative is that when you came in from the field you had to turn in your weapon CLEAN! No tape residue, scratches, etc.. You were responsible for your weapon and any damage. The M60 sling was comfortable, long, convenient, cheap and used by most of us.

 

The standard issue sling was too short, too slim, and wasn't adaptable. It could only be used for Drill and Ceremony for stacking weapons or in Sling Arms; We didn't use the sling arms mode except on rare occasions. When carrying your Weapon you were all business, all the time.

 

Rock

The issue sling was too noisy also. The buckle would make that loud KLAK sound when it would hit the handguard.

[ScottG]

I remember many guys using the 60 slings but I always used the black sling. I was on the 5th I.D. rifle team and later part of USAMTU at Ft. Benning. You learn when competing in the small arms competition that the sling makes a nice stable shooting platform for all of the positions (standing, kneeling, sitting, prone). I do agree that when in a field environment it can be annoying due to the length and lack of padding... A bit of tape takes care of noise issues. Still, a great thread and another example of how different units and individuals did things. Scott

[Sgt_Rock_EasyCo]

I remember many guys using the 60 slings but I always used the black sling. I was on the 5th I.D. rifle team and later part of USAMTU at Ft. Benning. You learn when competing in the small arms competition that the sling makes a nice stable shooting platform for all of the positions (standing, kneeling, sitting, prone). I do agree that when in a field environment it can be annoying due to the length and lack of padding... A bit of tape takes care of noise issues. Still, a great thread and another example of how different units and individuals did things. Scott

 

 

This is totally true. Some guys didn't use the M60 sling and I specifically remember our First Sgt removing the sling and placing Paracord on his rifle. He would wrap the paracord around something to keep the weapon from being walked away with. His rifle was actually sitting against a door with the paracord wrapped around a door knob when a firefight broke out. He was under the assumption he wouldn't need his rifle for anything and then it was funny as he started unwinding the paracord like crazy (like 5 feet long) from around the door knob.

 

Rock

[fallout]

Thanks for all of the help. I am about to get a PRC 77 radio 82 dated, sadly doesn't work. I am going to get a antenna bag to go with it but have some questions about the bag. So I have seen 2 types, the Vietnam one with the wire hooks to attach it and one with alice clips. The one with alice clips is dated 93, was the one with alice clips on it the one used in the 80s, I think so as I don't see how to use the one with wire hooks on it.

[Sgt_Rock_EasyCo]

Thanks for all of the help. I am about to get a PRC 77 radio 82 dated, sadly doesn't work. I am going to get a antenna bag to go with it but have some questions about the bag. So I have seen 2 types, the Vietnam one with the wire hooks to attach it and one with alice clips. The one with alice clips is dated 93, was the one with alice clips on it the one used in the 80s, I think so as I don't see how to use the one with wire hooks on it.

 

We used the Vietnam Radio Bags up to 1986 and probably beyond. Some guys would remove the wire and use the alice clips but not usually. Truthfully, most of the radio gear was stowed in the Large Alice Pack along with the radio. The radio pack (packboard) was pretty much never used in the Paratroops because we jumped with one single rucksack that stowed all of our gear. The Radio Bag was floppy but as I remember would also attach to the side/outside of the ruck with the hooks or alice clips. The alice clips were more reliable. The hooks would come undone so when you were moving fast, an item hanging from one clip would flop around and sometimes get dropped.

 

During my stint with the 82nd our pistol belts, H-Harness (preferred over the Y-Strap for comfort) were Vietnam Era because they took alice clips as well as hooks. The newer style pistol belt (waist clip in front) was used but few guys liked it because it took two hands to undo. Most of the veterans would not attach the pistol belt in front because during fire/maneuver we would land on the 20 and 30 round ammo pouches that had mags inside and that hurt. The Brits were smart in that all of their gear was attached on the side and in back so that they could crawl without discomort or flopping gear. We learned to put as many pouches on the side and rear as we could.

 

The only drawback to straight canvas gear was that it was a bit heavier, stayed wet and got heavy as it absorbed water and wore out as it got jungle rot. The nylon gear was lighter, more water resistant, but the corners would wear through quickly when crawling alot, exposing the plastic innards. Give and take I guess.

 

I would point out that the use of M-60 Slings was the precursor to these fancy new slings that are used now.

 

Rock

[fallout]

Well I was going to put the radio on the alice frame with the use of cargo straps and cargo shelf, and like that the only one that would attach would be the one with alice clips, how would I set it up without the alice pack?

[Sgt_Rock_EasyCo]

There is an inner compartment in the alice pack and that's where you can put the radio. Stick the antena out the side of the flap. The inner pocket should have a strap to cinch the radio in place, the top flap will further secure it. You place all of the items you will need the least in the bottom of the ruck, but leave room along one side of the inside for the radio bag. All critical gear, extra ammo will go on the top, inside the ruck. There is usually a packing SOP for each unit but we would emplace items in the outer three pockets that were of critical use and could be accessed by other team members. Items like Smoke Grenades, panels, cleaning kits, and such were all wrapped in extra socks to keep them together and quiet.

 

Rock

[fallout]

Did everyone get smoke grenades?