USMC WWII "Frogskin" Covers - Rethinking The Norm

[General Apathy]

Just found definitive prove the usmc depot made camo helmet covers and cam uniforms.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/230060-usmc-camp-helmet-cover-manufacturingbingo/

 

 

Hi Alec and everyone, It was Always nice to have stuff in bundles it helps to see the variation in color tones and shades, take a look at the slight shade variations in these few examples, note the variance in the depth of the background colors and also the colored shapes as well, if I recall there were twenty to each bundle I had. The examples shown are the September 1942 pattern with crown slits and slits in each folding tongue as well. ( these have all been sold sorry to say )

 

What I did find in these bundles was one unusual cover, both sides are Camo print but one half herringbone twill and the other side plain flat weave, I hung onto that one, I always liked oddities it showed that the manufacturer used every piece as there was a war on and as long as the item fulfilled the requirements then it was acceptable.

 

Two other items I hung onto over the years, one was a QM manufactured M-43 folding shovel cover, I repeat QM manufactured it was made with four different shades of material and edging, it did the job it was intended to do, it carried a shovel. ( it provided evidence when customers informed me that they wanted all matching webbing, I would show the cover and ask which one of the four colors on this M-43 cover did they want to match, as the Quarter master sure didn't care )

 

The other item of which I have two of them, is a M-1910 shovel cover, from the outside it looks exactly as it should do including printed dots where the securing strap should be sewn and the loop holding the belt hook, as well as a manufacturers name and date. However look inside it and there is evidence by way of black printed lines and a different manufacturers name that this piece of canvas was printed up and ready to be cut by a first manufacturer who's name appears inside, but for some reason the material was passed to the second manufacturer who turned the material and printed his own company's name and cut lines and stitching lines before producing the covers.

 

Sorry I don't have photo's to hand on my present computer but if a do pull them up off a previous hard drive I will add them here later.

 

Lewis.

 

.

[MCDUFF]

image.jpg

 

Hi Alec and everyone, It was Always nice to have stuff in bundles it helps to see the variation in color tones and shades, take a look at the slight shade variations in these few examples, note the variance in the depth of the background colors and also the colored shapes as well, if I recall there were twenty to each bundle I had. The examples shown are the September 1942 pattern with crown slits and slits in each folding tongue as well. ( these have all been sold sorry to say )

 

What I did find in these bundles was one unusual cover, both sides are Camo print but one half herringbone twill and the other side plain flat weave, I hung onto that one, I always liked oddities it showed that the manufacturer used every piece as there was a war on and as long as the item fulfilled the requirements then it was acceptable.

 

Two other items I hung onto over the years, one was a QM manufactured M-43 folding shovel cover, I repeat QM manufactured it was made with four different shades of material and edging, it did the job it was intended to do, it carried a shovel. ( it provided evidence when customers informed me that they wanted all matching webbing, I would show the cover and ask which one of the four colors on this M-43 cover did they want to match, as the Quarter master sure didn't care )

 

The other item of which I have two of them, is a M-1910 shovel cover, from the outside it looks exactly as it should do including printed dots where the securing strap should be sewn and the loop holding the belt hook, as well as a manufacturers name and date. However look inside it and there is evidence by way of black printed lines and a different manufacturers name that this piece of canvas was printed up and ready to be cut by a first manufacturer who's name appears inside, but for some reason the material was passed to the second manufacturer who turned the material and printed his own company's name and cut lines and stitching lines before producing the covers.

 

Sorry I don't have photo's to hand on my present computer but if a do pull them up off a previous hard drive I will add them here later.

 

Lewis.

 

.

That is a great photo Ken! I remember seeing the pile of covers in your shop! I still have the one I purchased. Wish I kept it folded and not put on a helmet....!

Cheers Graham

[General Apathy]

That is a great photo Ken! I remember seeing the pile of covers in your shop! I still have the one I purchased. Wish I kept it folded and not put on a helmet....!

Cheers Graham

Hi Graham, pleased that you managed to grab one of these when I had them, again it was an item that I shared with a dealer friend in the states, the sales over there were faster than in Europe as it was a PTO item.

 

LewiS.

 

.

[Maxwell506]

If Anyone on here has an original first pattern please send photos of close ups and stitching. I would like to compare it to my original!

[Sabrejet]

Ken...if you still had those today your hand would be bitten off in double quick time!!

[pump 150]

General,

Can't say for sure how many total of those you had are still found in the fold, however believe at least one is. I obtained this one a few years ago from a fellow forum member who thought it was part of your supply from way back.

 

Initially when purchased was thinking of displaying a nice unworn cover on a helmet, but once it arrived and truly recognized how nice it was still in the factory fold could not alter it's appearance for display. As you said with the color variances, this particular cover is made with a lighter and darker half. Still enjoy this one!

 

 

[sgtdorango]

Bazinga!...factory fresh!!......mike

[General Apathy]

Ken...if you still had those today your hand would be bitten off in double quick time!!

Hi Ian, it was nice that I had them once upon a time, rather than never. ? thanks for comment.

 

Ken.

 

.

[General Apathy]

General,

Can't say for sure how many total of those you had are still found in the fold, however believe at least one is. I obtained this one a few years ago from a fellow forum member who thought it was part of your supply from way back.

 

Initially when purchased was thinking of displaying a nice unworn cover on a helmet, but once it arrived and truly recognized how nice it was still in the factory fold could not alter it's appearance for display. As you said with the color variances, this particular cover is made with a lighter and darker half. Still enjoy this one!

 

usmc 3rd model fold.jpg

 

usmc 3rd model fold 2.jpg

Hi 150, thanks for the mail, pleasing to see that it brought you so much enjoyment, and thanks for showing the images. Wish I could find the unusual one I found in the bundles with one HBT side and one plain weave side, I loved the unusual stuff that used to turn up, it gave some perspective to production during WWII.

In a crate I had of 144 gun oil, 143 of the cans were printed right way up, just one of them was printed upside down, again it was one I had to hang onto, maybe I will take a shot of it and add later just to show that not everything left the factory 100% perfect! but as long as it did the job.

 

Regards ken .

 

.

[General Apathy]

Bazinga!...factory fresh!!......mike

Hi Mike, thanks for adding comment, great that we lived in an age when photography was available to enhance our enjoyment and share photos of stuff.

 

Regards ken.

 

.

[pump 150]

Just wanted to link this nice thread posted originally by forum member Dustin over to here in case anyone interested missed it the first time as it directly pertains to the conversation. An early photo dated November 1942 of the Frogskin cover with foliage slits in use. Thanks again Dustin for sharing this photo.

 

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/245129-usmc-slit-helmet-cover/

 

 

[jkash23686]

I was just going though this thread again, and I have to say this is one of the best threads in the helmet section by far.

[pump 150]

Thanks jkash, and thanks again to all the members who have spent so much time investigating and commenting here in order to try and come to the best conclusion with what has been made available to date!

 

I will link a couple other investigative threads that I started on the USMC Frogskin helmet covers here as well in order to keep them all in one location for the future in case more info shows up -

 

 

This one deals with the so called "2nd Model" (slits in crown - none in flaps) helmet cover along with the two main varying printed roller patterns found on WWII Frogskin camouflage and how all of the "2nd Model" helmet covers seen to date are the only model found using only one of the roller pattern types. There's something to that somehow -

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/222350-2nd-model-usmc-frogskin-cover-the-rarest/

 

 

While it is generally documented that the 1953 "Blue Anchor" model was the last production run of the USMC Frogskin helmet cover, here is one on what is thought to possibly be the truly last production run, from a 1964 contract date -

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/236038-usmc-frogskin-cover-with-1964-leaf-contract-marking/

 

 

[pump 150]

Also wanted to add here that many more photos of high quality have emerged online since this thread first started that have further confirmed both that USMC helmet covers with foliage slits as per the 1942 specs were among the first produced and issued, as well as showing that previously published photos of lower quality resolution do not always show the true facts due to the overall quality of the photo as well how difficult it is to pick out the foliage slits of newly issued/unworn helmet covers.

 

The picture below is a very well known photo from Tarawa and shown early on in this thread as a very good possibility of a so called "First Model" - no slit cover worn early in the USMC Frogskin helmet cover's use. A while back I found the original complete DoD photo at full resolution showing the truth.

 

Below is the photo shown in the thread that is commonly found online and the best available for us to examine until recently -

 

 

Below are very downsized/edited photos to fit the forum of the DoD original and an attempt to show the visible foliage slits shown -

 

 

 

 

Always feel free to add more photos or info here in order to help pin down when any of these variations first appeared or were issued.

[Cap Camouflage Pattern I]

Iwo Jima February 1945

[RichRaider]

Good afternoon,

 

I started doing research on Frogskin covers in order to avoid purchasing a repro. During my research, I found the most useful information came from USMF. It really guided me before I made a substantial financial commitment. It was this confidence that allowed me to purchase my first M1 fixed bail with first pattern cover (no slits). After the purchase I was hit with some anxiety. I had paid a lot of money and I was under the impression my helmet cover was an original, but all the threads stated that the saw tooth stitching was always on the beach side. Mine was not! How did I miss this important detail? I was also under the impression that my cover was from early WWII and that opinion had shifted. Now first patterns were late war. As I researched more, I was afraid that I wasted money on an all around fake or a post war cover.

 

I figured I would deal with one problem at a time. I contacted a friend who is also a USMF member and asked him to tell me if my cover was a fake. I told him to "shoot me straight." If it was a fake, I wanted to know. He posted photos on USMF for the experts to look at and to my relief, the users that replied that it was legit. I was also fortunate enough to have Joshua Murray (J. Murray Inc. 1944) offer to look at the helmet and cover in person and give me his two cents. He agreed it was real and with that box checked I sighed with relief.

 

Next was to find out when mine was made. I chased the "no slit photo" dragon like many other USMF users. Pouring over rare USMC photos and analyzing every detail for a clean, high res photo. Not much luck, but no big deal. The highly educated members of USMF agreed that the first pattern was still produced during the war.

 

This is where I throw gas on the Frogskin flame and try to reignite the debate. What I did not mention is the fact that my cover has foliage slits that were done by the Marine or Corpsman it was issued to. Okay, a kid could have cut slits in the cover of his dads helmet. Perhaps it was done late in the war because the individual wearing it noticed his was not like the others. Still, did the Marines get these covers first and send word back to the rear that the next batch needed slits? These field altered covers could explain the lack of, or proof that slits came first. Are we looking at First pattern covers early war that have been altered?

 

I am aware that my bias is toward First pattern. I am an active duty Marine and don't have the kind of money to buy expensive things twice. I also know that I want mine to be special. Truth is, I will probably only ever get to buy one helmet. I am lucky to have found the one I have. I am generally interested in all of your feedback, especially considering the wealth of knowledge in this forum. Below is a link to the photos of my helmet. Enjoy.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/280197-usmc-helmet-cover/

 

 

-Rich

[Cap Camouflage Pattern I]

Very nice looking helmet, I'd be proud to have that in my collection. I do not think that those slits were cut in it to make it look like his buddy's, they are not in anything close to the same pattern, I think they were done to be able to put branches in it and camouflage it.

[RichRaider]

Hey Camp Camouflage,

 

I hope I didn't give the wrong impression with my last post. I am absolutely ecstatic about my M1 helmet. It really will be one of my most prized possessions. The background information is just so that I can frame the topic from my perspective. I would also like to take this opportunity to correct a statement I made in the above post. It is supposed to say that "I am genuinely interested In all of your feedback" not "generally."

 

I agree that whoever put the sllts in the helmet intended them to house pieces of foliage, but that was my attempt at being flippant.

 

What I really want to do is pose some questions to the group. Did multiple manufacturers make helmet covers during the war and were some produced without slits? Could both have been issued around the same time(early war)? Did Marines realize that there's lacked the appropriate slits and made their own cuts? Is this why it is hard to find photo evidence of covers without slits early war?

 

Thank you and very respectfully

-Rich

[digi-shots]

Great thread and very informative!

 

Here's my addition... it was obtained from a Korean War - Vietnam veteran. My guess is that it's a WWII leftover that was later ink-stamped with an EGA (solid without ribbon banner). Note there are no slits on the flaps.

 

There's a little bit of rust staining on the "sand" side, probably wore it green side out.

 

 

 

[digi-shots]

and the "sand" side:

 

[pump 150]

Hello Rich,

 

Glad you were able to find a nice example for your collection! My opinion on the slits field cut into the "1st Model" with what has been shown to date would actually be reverse as to your thoughts. The field made slits were made for potential camouflage placement in order to mimic the previously produced models with the slits...just me with what has been learned so far.

 

With the great research found by forum member Alec, these were produced thru the Marine Corps Depot system -

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/230060-usmc-camp-helmet-cover-manufacturingbingo/

 

How many locations or exactly where still needs to be found, and your question actually ties in nicely with the next post...and thank you for your service!

 

--------------------

 

digi,

 

Great example of a "2nd Model"! It has the post war applied smaller version of the EGA. Always like to see these models when can as yours still falls in line with all others seen to date with what I call the "Design B" version of the roller pattern as I linked above. This design has now been documented used on all three models of the WWII made Frogskin covers, except....

 

Every "2nd Model" so far documented only has this "Design B" hinting that it was maybe made at one facility being supplied from a single vendor printing the HBT material in this design. This pattern is not seen used so far on the post war 1953 and 1964 produced Frogskin covers.

 

Still many answers to find on these, thanks guys for the comments and covers!

 

 

[RichRaider]

Good evening Pump 150,

 

I hope this post doesn't make it look like I am flip flopping on my previous position. I simply posed several questions to the forum to be objective on the topic. My personal position is as follows, but I'm ready to be taken to school on all the things I don't know:

 

We know that millions of like items were being produced during the war by multiple titans of industry. Still, small companies wanted to lend every bit of support they could and would produce equipment for the war effort. This is especially true when you look at all the different fighting knifes, daggers, and bayonets produced during the war.

 

I personally think that all three covers were being produced at approximately the same time (give or take a few months) by a few companies. In the last couple of years, photos and video have been found that appear to show a mix of slits and no slits all over the Pacific. The covers would probably be sent from the factory to a main distribution facility and stored until a request was sent in by the S-4 of a Marine Division.

 

Things that support this theory:

 

-We know that there are three different types of covers. Does this mean three different companies or possibly more?

-At least 2-3 different excepted patterns. Again, different companies?

-Photos of Marines with and without slits in the covers in almost every battle in the pacific (we have definitely seen covers on Iwo Jima without slits).

 

Something I found that is interesting and might be a little off topic, but I’m sure it could be used on both sides of the argument. My helmet has some cryptic writing on the side and I found a cover for sale on Ebay with almost the same writing. Was this done by the Marines as a way to track or mark the helmet or cover? Was this some sort of lot number done by the manufacturer? Please check the link below to see what I’m talking about.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/280837-helpinfo-with-writing-on-usmc-wwii-frogskin-covers/

 

 

Love the way this conversation is going.

 

Merry Christmas!

[pump 150]

Raising questions and spurring further research is what this entire thread is all about and are always welcome! You bring up some valid points on the varying models found so far and where produced exactly, as said there is still more that needs to be learned. Much has been gained already on these helmet covers just since all have participated here and will hopefully continue.

 

The one area that still lacks is early use photo documentation of the no-slit "1st Model" until most probably the mid 1944 timeframe, unlike the specs and photos shown of those with the slits in use since 1942 production started. If you have any documents or clear cut no issue photos to share showing the 1st Model in use early on during training, Bougainville, Tarawa, Eniwetok, Roi Namur, Cape Gloucester/New Britain please post them. Or anyone else out there for that matter.

 

There is no right or wrong answer here IMO, just where all the info/research that is uncovered and shared by those interested will eventually lead us.

[Schnicklfritz]

Here's one of those covers with the twilled cloth on one side and the USMC HBT weave on the other. I've had this for several years. Only other one I have seen is the one Ken mentions. Unfortunately, I have no other info about its manufacture. This photo shows the twilled cloth side.

[Schnicklfritz]

This is the close up of the so called "pacman" that shows the twilled cloth nicely along with the buttonhole.