1940Desoto Posted June 15, 2013 Share #126 Posted June 15, 2013 The P42 camo uniforms would have been made at the same time as the helmet covers so I would assume the patterns should match. We should match mint covers against mint P42 uniforms. This would automatically rule in or out the theiory that late pattern non-buttonhole covers were of a different pattern/shade. I do not have mint examples of either one so... who some examples? Agreed, very good point ( just purchased a copy of 'Equipping the Corps' ...thank you) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
History Man Posted June 15, 2013 Share #127 Posted June 15, 2013 Here is my mint no slit type. Philip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schnicklfritz Posted June 15, 2013 Share #128 Posted June 15, 2013 I hope these came out ok and view good. For the sake of this post, I call what others say is the P44 camo, the 43 pattern due to what folks have proven here in other posts on that particular camo utility pattern. I took several photos of non-slit vs slit covers, P42 camo and P43 camo trousers in mint condition along with color and pattern matching. Patterns match on all pieces perfectly. From what I've seen, the base dye color on the camo was initially a golden green color that later changed to a pea green background. I've seen a few pieces of both the 42 and 43 camo that were a bright gold background. Also, I have seen some pea green on the 42 pattern camo but not predominantly. The pea green was predominantly on 43 pattern camo utilities with a few pieces that were the golden background. Also, the strength of the dyed fabrics would depend on several factors in the process of dying, such as temperature, humidity, etc. So you will see various shading of unissued cloth from dye batch to dye batch. It occurred to me that I read somewhere a USMC evaluation of the P42 camo a few years back. The findings stated that the P42 camo was effective when the Marine was in a stationary position, but not so effective when moving. Also, that once the camo utilities faded, they made the Marine stand out against the background. I have seen P42 camo that was faded almost white. The interesting part was the paper was about the helmet cover. It stated that the use of foliage slits in the cover was not effective. That when foliage was put into the slits, it would reveal the Marine's position once he moved his head about, by causing an unnatural movement of the foliage. Does anyone else remember this reference? I looked through my books and the stuff I printed off over the years, but cannot locate it. Probably thrown out in my move. Also, look at the timeframe of when the P42 camo came out and the issue of the P43 camo. No a great time difference in their issuance. So there would be a short timeframe that you would only see the slit style covers and then start seeing the non- slit covers if the non-slit covers came about after the evaluation of the P42 camo and the change over to the 43 camo Hope my blabber is making sense. I have a short time here on the computer. Photos to come! Wish they were larger! The first photo shows non slit covers, slitted covers with the last one on the right being one of the Blue Anchor marked covers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schnicklfritz Posted June 15, 2013 Share #129 Posted June 15, 2013 closer, from left, 1st is a non slit, next 2 are silted covers and to the far right the Blue Anchor cover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schnicklfritz Posted June 15, 2013 Share #130 Posted June 15, 2013 fist 3 are non slit vs next 2 slitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schnicklfritz Posted June 15, 2013 Share #131 Posted June 15, 2013 non slit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schnicklfritz Posted June 15, 2013 Share #132 Posted June 15, 2013 pattern match between slit and non slit covers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schnicklfritz Posted June 15, 2013 Share #133 Posted June 15, 2013 another pattern match. Kinda hard to do on the covers I have as they are so small. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schnicklfritz Posted June 15, 2013 Share #134 Posted June 15, 2013 P42 vs P43 camo trousers, unissued condition. Bottom 2 are P42, top being P44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schnicklfritz Posted June 15, 2013 Share #135 Posted June 15, 2013 comparison of 42 and 43 trousers. You can see some minor differences in the dye strength on the 42 pattern trousers and also on the material used for the pockets. note the pattern match on the P42 trouser pockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schnicklfritz Posted June 15, 2013 Share #136 Posted June 15, 2013 pattern match on the trousers. Easier to do! The camo pattern appears to repeat approximately every 12 inches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schnicklfritz Posted June 15, 2013 Share #137 Posted June 15, 2013 a pattern match on a non slit cover to the 42 trousers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schnicklfritz Posted June 15, 2013 Share #138 Posted June 15, 2013 pattern matched from a slit cover to the P42 trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schnicklfritz Posted June 15, 2013 Share #139 Posted June 15, 2013 pattern match slit cover to the P43 trousers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schnicklfritz Posted June 15, 2013 Share #140 Posted June 15, 2013 pattern match non slit cover to P43 trousers. That is it for these! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Flage Guy Posted June 15, 2013 Share #141 Posted June 15, 2013 I was hoping you would chime in Flage... Thank you 'Johnny on the spot'! Great covers mate, as an aside,how 'rare' are the covers w/out slits in the flaps in your opinion ? Cheers Sean Hello Sean- I used to see the "slitless flap" Covers quite regularly (on the occasions when 'flage HBT did show up, and we all know how "often" that is ), but I generally avoided them because of my belief that they were post-War. I haven't shopped for Covers for a number of years, and therefore am not fit to voice any authoritative view on their current rarity...sorry! It seems to me, though, that they wouldn't be as hard to come by as are the decent examples of Wartime Covers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Flage Guy Posted June 15, 2013 Share #142 Posted June 15, 2013 Fritz- thanks for the outstanding comparisons...you've got some 1st class stuff!! Excellent comparisons of early vs. "N.I." dye shades! I've noticed on all the camo HBTs I've examined that the patterns are pretty much identical, with one notable exception below: Here is the standard "Big Brown Spot" all of us 'Flagists know; the one on the right is on an Army Jacket made by Woodbury Mills, the only manufacturer I've known to utilize this particular run of cloth (the one at left is a pair of "King Kard Overall" Trousers)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIJive Posted June 15, 2013 Share #143 Posted June 15, 2013 All, Below pictures are of a close to "mint" non-buttonhole camouflage helmet cover and minty P42 set, jacket and trousers. Keeping in mind the flash lightens the colors slightly, it is a pretty good dye match. I have a cover with slits that I gave to my son with a markedly darker green base color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theorywolf Posted June 15, 2013 Share #144 Posted June 15, 2013 I will post a pic either tonight or tomorrow. However, my no-slit Iwo Jima helmet cover is two toned? One side is darker in color than the other half! Did they sometimes just grab what they had and put together halfs of different hues? I will place a pic soon! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Flage Guy Posted June 15, 2013 Share #145 Posted June 15, 2013 However, my no-slit Iwo Jima helmet cover is two toned? One side is darker in color than the other half! Did they sometimes just grab what they had and put together halfs of different hues? I will place a pic soon! Mike This happened all the time- with both Covers and Utilities... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Flage Guy Posted June 15, 2013 Share #146 Posted June 15, 2013 '44 Utility Coats: early production at left, and "new improved" on the right. The right chest panel on the early Coat is a strange pale caste, and the panel on the "N.I." Coat speaks for itself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pump 150 Posted June 16, 2013 Author Share #147 Posted June 16, 2013 First off, thanks guys for the interest and for all the great photos. Some very nice collections out there. Sure would be nice if anyone could come up with a copy of that evaluation. Fritz, do you happen to remember when that evaluation you mentioned was dated by any chance? The WWII slit and non-slit covers I have match those color variations very closely. Questions- So if I'm following this correctly it would seem that these no slit covers could have started being produced possibly as a result of the mentioned eval as well as to save time and cost and at about the same time as the changeover to the improved dying procedures which would account for most of them being a darker shade. Correct? What was the timeframe for the change over to the new dying process (1943-1944?). If so then that could account for them beginning to show up more mid '44 into '45. Opinions? If the slits were deemed to be not needed, what would be your best reasons for them to be included back into the '53 and all other later covers? Thanks again, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theorywolf Posted June 16, 2013 Share #148 Posted June 16, 2013 Here are a couple of photos of my Iwo Jima ID'ed helmet and camo cover. The right side is darker than the left side (from the viewer's position). This is much more apparant in hand than with the photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theorywolf Posted June 16, 2013 Share #149 Posted June 16, 2013 last Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schnicklfritz Posted June 17, 2013 Share #150 Posted June 17, 2013 Fritz- thanks for the outstanding comparisons...you've got some 1st class stuff!! Excellent comparisons of early vs. "N.I." dye shades! I've noticed on all the camo HBTs I've examined that the patterns are pretty much identical, with one notable exception below: Here is the standard "Big Brown Spot" all of us 'Flagists know; the one on the right is on an Army Jacket made by Woodbury Mills, the only manufacturer I've known to utilize this particular run of cloth (the one at left is a pair of "King Kard Overall" Trousers)... Suit, 2-Piece, Jungle Jacket #10 USMF.JPG Ken Lewis came up with some USMC helmet covers quite a few years ago that were made of a cotton twill fabric, not HBT. I wonder if the pattern matches on those covers also. I've searched my books, etc. and cannot come up with the P42 evaluation that I referred to previously. It may have been posted on the old USMF a few years back. I'll keep looking! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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