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USMC WWII "Frogskin" Covers - Rethinking The Norm


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Came across this scene of the documentary by the History Channel in HD about the fighting on Tarawa.

 

At about 17:49 Minutes you can see this Marine possible wearing a non-slit pattern Cover.

The picture is not in HD since I watched in on my mobile phone.

 

What do you mean?

 

Heres the link:

 

Greetings

Blueprint

Blueprint,

 

Although it appears that the cover in question could be a non-slit pattern, the resolution isn't sufficient to make a positive conclusion as pump 150 has demonstrated many times in this thread. Besides, just because the documentary is about Tarawa doesn't mean that specific clip of color footage is from the Tarawa operation. Documentaries intercut color footage from different Pacific invasions all the time. It could have been shot during the Iwo Jima or Okinawa invasions.

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Ill gues youre right that the scene might be not from Tarawa, also since most Marines wore their beach side camouflage up at Tarawa...

 

I already did some various editing but couldnt determine any slits.

 

Maybe someone here on the forum can deliver a more high resolution Picture.

Collector of used and ID'd M1 Helmets

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Ill gues youre right that the scene might be not from Tarawa, also since most Marines wore their beach side camouflage up at Tarawa...

 

I already did some various editing but couldnt determine any slits.

 

Maybe someone here on the forum can deliver a more high resolution Picture.

I think the footage is from Okinawa. The marine seems to have been issued a swivel bail pot w/ OD7 chinstraps

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Hello"

Nice camo covers! Am I correct in noticing that there are no slits cut on covers in the stacked helmet photo?

 

Thanks

I Collect USMC WWII uniforms, gear, patches, insignia. medals and ribbons. I also sell and trade Militaria of primarily the U.S. Military.

 

R.Delaney

 

Semper Fidelis-

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I will add resized copies of the linked photo above so that it stays with the thread. A very nice photo to study, however this photo copy is very bright and washed out to the point that some of the Marine's slits at left fade into the cover as well unless at full size. I have not seen this original high res as of yet.

 

post-98601-0-21290100-1558294539.jpg

 

post-98601-0-98896000-1558294555.jpg

 

post-98601-0-13721600-1558294571.jpg

 

While no very noticeable slits are seen on the one at right, with the position of the cover (far forward) the slits should run diagonal low in front - high in back. In this very darkened crop the red circle indicating the straight line in the exact position and angle where a slit should be in relation to the center crown fold would seem to indicate possible stitching. The quality of this photo at the present time would make this inconclusive to rule either way IMHO.

 

post-98601-0-65603000-1558294586.jpg

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IMHO I can't recognize any stitching or even a slit on the cover of the Right one. I guess the Problem with this Picture is: If I strongly believe that there should be a slit anyways, then there is one. Like you said: The Picture is inconclusive. A even more high Resolution Picture would be nice but I don't think that there is one available…

Collector of used and ID'd M1 Helmets

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Shown here is a mint never issued USMC cover. It demonstrates how difficult it can be to spot the slits in the cover on a newly issued example; not to mention, it's a high resolution photo vs a photos from the 1940s.

 

post-8903-0-19015900-1558983335_thumb.jpg

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The cover in question in Bills last post is very difficult to see slits. Notice how far forward the cover is pulled to the bull of the helmet (the crown of the cover is near the front) slits might even be sandwiched in between the steel shell and liner

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Does this mean that my slit cover helmet is now worth more than a non-slit one?

 

I see non slit covers way more than the other. I have 2 slit covers in my collection including a later 1953 cover with slits. I have 3 non slit covers with no EGA, I would like to find a nice condition with slits cover myself.

 

 

Semper Fidelis-

I Collect USMC WWII uniforms, gear, patches, insignia. medals and ribbons. I also sell and trade Militaria of primarily the U.S. Military.

 

R.Delaney

 

Semper Fidelis-

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I see non slit covers way more than the other. I have 2 slit covers in my collection including a later 1953 cover with slits. I have 3 non slit covers with no EGA, I would like to find a nice condition with slits cover myself.

 

 

Semper Fidelis-

 

Please see my post here.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/336984-for-trade-nice-idd-fs-fb-usmc-helmet-wslitted-cover/

Always buying USMC named uniforms and unit marked items.




"Life is hard, it's harder if you're stupid"

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I reread this fantastic thread by Pump and it’s made me question all of our reading material that’s been produced on USMC field gear and helmets. 
 

Every book I have, which I have several on the marine corps States that the non slit pattern is the 1st type. Now you have to ask yourself where these authors got this idea from, where was the photographic evidence to put these covers in each one of there books as a 1st pattern with no clear photographic evidence of them In use that I know of. 
 

The books I own are fantastic and very highly detailed so what information did the authors have to put these covers as 1st patterns, is there photographic evidence they have in their archives we are yet to see. 
 

As we have found on this thread photos can be very deceiving, lighting and photo size make a huge difference in trying to work out slitted or not.    
 

I just would like to know why most books produced on the Marine corps show this pattern of cover being the 1st. 
 

To add to the thread here is a photo on Iwo Jima I believe. 
 

Not sure if it’s already been put on here but it’s a cool photo none the less. The marine on the right looks like he could be wearing  a non slit cover. The middle crease is riding low at the back but it’s a good one to study. 
 

looking forward to hearing other theories on why some authors have chosen to Go with the not slit version as the 1sr pattern 
 

- Dean 

"Rise and rise again until lambs become lions."

 

Always looking for ww2 USMC items, helmets and any camo'd items

 

 

"thinking outside of the box"

 

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https://combatusedmilitaria.com

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Continuing to study these photos whenever new or better ones arrive, I still have yet to see a fully confirmed photo of a no foliage slit "First Model" in use during WWII or found any documentation.  Certainly doesn't mean that they weren’t worn, but with the sheer number of higher quality pics becoming available, especially of the early war period you'd think it would be seen by now possibly.  Still looking though!

I believe, as mentioned here in the past that while being able to actually see all three models in hand with existing examples and what was confirmed produced post WWII, the period photos used to judge at the time were just that.  Judgements on what was being seen in the photo with available picture quality before the release of many original high res.  I showed that here in Mark Reynosa's book.  It does not make any of the authors any less credible in my opinion, to the contrary as I've said here before they inspired many of us (myself included) to collect and do our own research too!

I'm fully aware of what this represents within the collecting community as many purchases have been based solely on the "First Model" concept of collecting (myself included), but facts are facts.  While it is still unknown exactly when the no foliage slit model began production, we can positively say that the 9-42 spec helmet cover was produced at the beginning and worn as the primary helmet cover of U.S. Marines during WWII.  Not a late war addition. 

Finding documentation in either direction for production of the no slit would be great to see and learn!

As for the picture on Iwo Jima, I showed this one early on and made mention that this could very well be a "First Model" back then.  With much more research and staring at photos I would not fully confirm that anymore without additional photos to compare.  Below is the best quality found so far, still just a bit fuzzy.  I don't believe that is actually the crown fold, just a slight overlap.  Looking at the center seam offset and chinstrap it appears that he has not cut holes for the chinstrap, but possibly used the first gap off center to place his cover.  That would make this one ride way off center and very far forward shell right.  Any foliage slits would be way out of line from what is "normal".  The left side does look very promising with a few lighter faint lines showing, I've shown here some sort abnormal marking on his cover, is it a foliage slit?  Unknown at this time due to photo quality and way out of normal alignment, also not perpendicular to the seam, but it is the approx. right size for one.  Just my opinion, always interested in hearing thoughts. 

So where does that leave the collector called "Second Model"?  Totally unknown right now other than following the great clue that so far it has only been seen produced from the lesser encountered second roller pattern, which at this point has only been documented being produced in WWII - what I call "Design B" just to tell the difference.  Which if you study the so called "pac man" in this photo it appears he is wearing this "B" roller variant.

USMC IWO BEACH - Copy.PNG

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Where the no foliage slit model of the USMC frogskin helmet cover can be readily seen as a primary helmet cover in field worn combat use, from the USMC Archive...

Korea 1953

USMC COVER 1951-52 FLIP - Copy.jpg

USMC COVER 1951-52 2 FLIP.jpg

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1 hour ago, pump 150 said:

Where the no foliage slit model of the USMC frogskin helmet cover can be readily seen as a primary helmet cover in field worn combat use, from the USMC Archive...

Korea 1953

USMC COVER 1951-52 FLIP - Copy.jpg

USMC COVER 1951-52 2 FLIP.jpg

Great photo Pump 

but I’m still at a loss as to why almost all of the research books state this to be the 1st pattern. 
you mentioned new photos or better scans of photos over the years  but these books have some incredible photos which I’m sure come from the authors originals. Each one showing slitted covers, 

the question still remains, why do all of these books proclaim this pattern to be the 1st pattern when little to no evidence has been provided. Everything points to the slitted version being the 1st pattern. 

A quandary I hope one day will become clear 

 

great work on this new photo 


 

 

"Rise and rise again until lambs become lions."

 

Always looking for ww2 USMC items, helmets and any camo'd items

 

 

"thinking outside of the box"

 

New website

 

https://combatusedmilitaria.com

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Not to distract but, the sharpie Sgt. stripes look pretty authentic too. You got the collectors who say: "That was never done". And here you got a period pic saying: "Uh, yeah, it was done."

"There is no such thing as an expert, only students with different levels of education."
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I agree that finding documents are the key, and hopefully they will emerge at some point.  How many photos have been posted absolutely proclaiming either specific proof added within this thread or "already well documented pictures in use" of the "First Model" in widespread use during WWII?  These foliage slits can be extremely hard to see, even in good quality photos.  You just can't take a quick look and judge.  Photo quality and fully understanding how the cover is placed on the helmet needs to be considered before making any decision in either direction.

I made mention of Mark Reynosa's book in particular as an example only as I found the original.  I would have sworn that dog handler also was wearing a no slit for years until the huge clear original showed up, very hard to tell without the high res available.  Unless an author has such confirming docs, then it would only seem natural to rationalize with the first model of a brand new helmet cover for the brand new M-1 helmet not to have foliage slits. 

Along with what appeared to be the steady addition of foliage slits over time.  Then the deletion of the flap slits in the 1953 Blue Anchor and continued until the end of the M-1 production with other patterns.  That, along with photos available at the time not clearly showing them would make sense in the order of progression.  If any authors see this and wish to comment otherwise, please do!  

[ In my opinion at this time..... "Models" are only a collecting term for our ease of determining the type, which I also like using.  The 9-42 spec is the original USMC WWII helmet cover, with each variance an amended type at some point along the production cycle for some reason...cost, time constraints, ease, production speed for potential numbers needed, etc.  Those are the relating documents which need to be found. ]

For the Iwo Jima photo, IMO the circles represent the closest chance of foliage slits as the whiter shades run parallel and show symmetry compared to placement on helmet as previously described and witnessed on helmet covers. 

Always interested in hearing thoughts!....

 

USMC IWO BEACH - Copy (2) - Copy.PNG

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10 hours ago, Bugme said:

Not to distract but, the sharpie Sgt. stripes look pretty authentic too. You got the collectors who say: "That was never done". And here you got a period pic saying: "Uh, yeah, it was done."

I agree Scott, 
as better research materials have become available and higher resolution pictures, what was once considered ‘that was never done’ is now being proved as incorrect. Here is a great pic of the stripes being worn on a P41 on Iwo Jima. Taken from one of my dvds, photos shows the sequence of the loader who is wearing the stripes clearly on his P41.

 

- Dean

 

 

423B8993-010E-48BD-BF2C-B266AE376C20.jpeg

9E5D8AAA-1510-4EE2-BD0F-BDC67D417972.jpeg

7847C458-9AAE-4930-9857-9A024FDB5953.jpeg

"Rise and rise again until lambs become lions."

 

Always looking for ww2 USMC items, helmets and any camo'd items

 

 

"thinking outside of the box"

 

New website

 

https://combatusedmilitaria.com

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16 hours ago, Bugme said:

Not to distract but, the sharpie Sgt. stripes look pretty authentic too. You got the collectors who say: "That was never done". And here you got a period pic saying: "Uh, yeah, it was done."

I have seen this on uniforms since I was a kid and I can bet so have most of you. Field uniforms have always been modified by the soldiers and Marines, if you notice it is usually for NCO's that this is usually found to be the stenciled chevrons. In the command museum at MCRD and Division museum at Camp Pendleton there are P41 shirts with stenciled chevrons, I find it highly unlikely these where added later. I have had quite a few P41 shirts and P47 that where period stenciled, I am no expert but I am a Marine and have been where many of these so called experts have not!

Robin-

I Collect USMC WWII uniforms, gear, patches, insignia. medals and ribbons. I also sell and trade Militaria of primarily the U.S. Military.

 

R.Delaney

 

Semper Fidelis-

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19 hours ago, pump 150 said:

Where the no foliage slit model of the USMC frogskin helmet cover can be readily seen as a primary helmet cover in field worn combat use, from the USMC Archive...

Korea 1953

USMC COVER 1951-52 FLIP - Copy.jpg

USMC COVER 1951-52 2 FLIP.jpg

No EGA either.  Many people say that the EGA's were put on right after WWII (some make it sound like immediately after the surrender documents were signed!), but in my limited number of Korean War photos, I have yet to see an EGA on a helmet cover in Korea during the war.

Mike B. in 'Bama

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