Steve1987 Posted January 29, 2018 Share #276 Posted January 29, 2018 Hi juodonnell and pump150, I think pump 150's answer is better than mine. I'm sure some WWII Marines ended up with "no slit" covers at some point. As I said, I'm not sure those are the helmet covers they wore in combat, whether it be from re-fit, things they picked up after the wore, on the way home, or anything else. I know many veterans who after leaving the military picked up items they were once issued as sort of nostalgia, and those things quickly get mixed in with stuff they actually used. I don't want you think I'm totally discounting the groups, but just providing some reasons why maybe we can't be 100% sure from them. There's no solid 100% proof it would seem either way yet. Maybe they are like P44 camo utilities that saw very limited proven use in WWII. I guess we will just need to keep looking or hope someone comes forward with more photos / information. In my personal opinion I've seen enough evidence to suggest at best these saw very limited late war use in combat, but I'm still waiting on the proof to be entirely convinced. I still look at them with some skepticism and feel that anyone considering buying WWII helmets may want to do the same, if they want a helmet that represent what the average Marine wore in WWII. Cheers, -Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec Posted January 30, 2018 Share #277 Posted January 30, 2018 Please keep in mind that the 1944 year is July 1943 to June 1944. Manufacturing dates are associated with the Fiscal year. It can place manufacturing further back than we would normally think. Does not change new hypothesis, but gives a looser timeline on dating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pump 150 Posted January 30, 2018 Author Share #278 Posted January 30, 2018 Yes, that is an important point to remember and I should have been clearer on the actual "contract year" dating. Thank you Alec! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schnicklfritz Posted January 30, 2018 Share #279 Posted January 30, 2018 Ditto on what you said in post #275 pump 150... wow!! Even though something shows up in a grouping doesn't necessarily mean that it was what that particular person used early on in the war. It would be reflective of what he was more than likely last issued and that leaves a lot of leeway with dating a particular item like a helmet cover. But the cold hard facts of non slit covers is that to date, not one solid photo of one being used during the war has been shown yet. Lots of evidence has been shown to tie them to late war issued and not really the 1st pattern helmet cover as shown in the 42 spec sheet, but I guess til definitive photographic proof and/or a spec sheet or order allowing the buttonholes to be omitted from the cover, it is all basically speculation/hypothesis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelDM Posted February 14, 2018 Share #280 Posted February 14, 2018 Found this , its information already available but thought it was a good read http://yankreenactment.nl/usmc/helmet-cover/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pump 150 Posted March 26, 2018 Author Share #281 Posted March 26, 2018 With the permission of member ArchangelDM, I have linked the thread below that he started showing a very good picture taken on Iwo Jima which many here believe is an example of a "1st Model" helmet cover in use. It is added here so that any interested in the conversation can find this one easily in the future as well to view, comment, or help with. My thanks to ArchangelDM http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/307621-usmc-the-ww2-camo-cover-debate/ As it was brought up again in that thread, and knowing twelve pages is a lot to go through, for the record one more time - The overall feeling I get from those looking into this subject is that there is no doubt proof of helmets attributed to WWII vets with "1st Model" helmet covers in place. And most all believe that the "1st Model" is indeed a WWII produced helmet cover. The questions are as explained in the previous posts above, when were they produced and first issued/worn. Any pertinent photos or supporting reference material to help confirm this information are always welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bellumbill Posted March 26, 2018 Share #282 Posted March 26, 2018 I don't know if anyone has referenced this in this thread - if so I am sorry to be repetitive. Below is a grouping from a forum member - the marine made all landings with the 4th marine division, 14th marine regiment in WWII and was an artillery spotter on Iwo Jima. It is an amazing grouping and, among other things, comes with his named helmet and cover, which is clearly a non-slit cover. Perhaps "proof" that at the very least these covers may well have been worn on Iwo Jima? http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/201954-usmc-ww2-combat-grouping/?hl=hinkle Very best, Bill K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchangelDM Posted March 27, 2018 Share #283 Posted March 27, 2018 With the permission of member ArchangelDM, I have linked the thread below that he started showing a very good picture taken on Iwo Jima which many here believe is an example of a "1st Model" helmet cover in use. It is added here so that any interested in the conversation can find this one easily in the future as well to view, comment, or help with. My thanks to ArchangelDM http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/307621-usmc-the-ww2-camo-cover-debate/ As it was brought up again in that thread, and knowing twelve pages is a lot to go through, for the record one more time - The overall feeling I get from those looking into this subject is that there is no doubt proof of helmets attributed to WWII vets with "1st Model" helmet covers in place. And most all believe that the "1st Model" is indeed a WWII produced helmet cover. The questions are as explained in the previous posts above, when were they produced and first issued/worn. Any pertinent photos or supporting reference material to help confirm this information are always welcome. Thanks Pump 150 Im sure as we dig deeper and as more and more documents and photos become available we will be able to nail down an actual date for these. Great work by all Yours Dean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pump 150 Posted March 27, 2018 Author Share #284 Posted March 27, 2018 Thanks bellumbell! Let me add here also as it has been mentioned in multiple recent threads that there is ample evidence showing the “1st Model” in use during WWII. In reality that seems to have been found to be a very difficult task to determine conclusively to this date. This thread has now turned basically 180 degrees from its original intent on trying tie in when the so called “3 Third Model” entered active use, to now trying to find documents or a well defined high resolution photo showing conclusively when the so called “1st Model” can be found entering use during WWII. If anyone has specific documents or photos on the so called “1st Model” in WWII to share feel free, however please take the time to read through this thread first to try and understand just how difficult it can be to actually see the foliage slits in photographs before posting low resolution pictures. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrei Posted March 27, 2018 Share #285 Posted March 27, 2018 United States Marines climbing down the nets into landing craft during the Battle of Peleliu, September-November 1944. (Photographer: Griffin Image courtesy of the United States Marine Corps History Division, Peleliu 117058. Colorized and researched by Benjamin Thomas from Australia) I found this picture online. The colorization doesn't really help but the covers look to be the "first model". Note the mosquito net cover in the middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrei Posted March 27, 2018 Share #286 Posted March 27, 2018 An American Marine aiming his Garand M1 rifle, whilst perched on Japanese ammunition crates on the Island of Iwo Jima, c. February/March 1945. (Colourised by Royston Leonard from the UK) Another colorized picture. Nice study of a cover with slits and stenciled name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrei Posted March 27, 2018 Share #287 Posted March 27, 2018 No caption for this one but looks to be also colorized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrei Posted March 27, 2018 Share #288 Posted March 27, 2018 PFC Thomas E. Underwood of B/1/24th Marines, 4th Marine Division. The photo was taken by W. Eugene Smith on Saipan, July 8, 1944. PFC Underwood would survive, only to be killed in action later at Iwo Jima. Thomas E. Underwood was born in Parker, Florida on May 16, 1922. He enlisted in the Marine Corps in fall of 1942 and fought with the 4th Marine Division in all its battles across the Pacific. Semper Fi! Link to the high resolution version "First model" cover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrei Posted March 27, 2018 Share #289 Posted March 27, 2018 No caption for this picture. Link to the high resolution version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap Camouflage Pattern I Posted March 28, 2018 Share #290 Posted March 28, 2018 underwood_troutman.png PFC Thomas E. Underwood of B/1/24th Marines, 4th Marine Division. The photo was taken by W. Eugene Smith on Saipan, July 8, 1944. PFC Underwood would survive, only to be killed in action later at Iwo Jima. Thomas E. Underwood was born in Parker, Florida on May 16, 1922. He enlisted in the Marine Corps in fall of 1942 and fought with the 4th Marine Division in all its battles across the Pacific. Semper Fi! Link to the high resolution version "First model" cover Another photo of thomas showing that his helmet cover has slits. Notice he has "Thomas" written on the front of his helmet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap Camouflage Pattern I Posted March 28, 2018 Share #291 Posted March 28, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap Camouflage Pattern I Posted March 28, 2018 Share #292 Posted March 28, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap Camouflage Pattern I Posted March 28, 2018 Share #293 Posted March 28, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap Camouflage Pattern I Posted March 28, 2018 Share #294 Posted March 28, 2018 world-war-ii-in-color-10.jpg United States Marines climbing down the nets into landing craft during the Battle of Peleliu, September-November 1944. (Photographer: Griffin Image courtesy of the United States Marine Corps History Division, Peleliu 117058. Colorized and researched by Benjamin Thomas from Australia) I found this picture online. The colorization doesn't really help but the covers look to be the "first model". Note the mosquito net cover in the middle. here is the original black and white. Colorization is great for bringing things to life, but not for studying details, because it is almost a painting over the original. The mar on the right looks like he has slits, but the photo is too low quality to tell for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrei Posted March 28, 2018 Share #295 Posted March 28, 2018 You are right Cap, PFC Underwood's cover has slits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pump 150 Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share #296 Posted March 28, 2018 Thanks Andrei. The above photo of the landing craft at Peleliu I actually mentioned back on Page 4 as a great chance of one at the time viewing the high res copy, however after studying these more over the years realizing just how hard the slits can be to see at times and the importance to the hobby, I commented on page 10 that I personally would now list it only as a probable due to what can be seen. All other clearly shown helmets in the photos listed from posts 286-289 do have the 9-42 spec crown foliage slits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustin Posted June 14, 2018 Share #297 Posted June 14, 2018 Don't know if this helps the discussion at all but here we have a Marine on Cape Gloucester (Dec-43, April-44). He is using his helmet cover to cap off his shelter which is a poncho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustin Posted June 14, 2018 Share #298 Posted June 14, 2018 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pump 150 Posted June 14, 2018 Author Share #299 Posted June 14, 2018 Thank you for adding dustin, that is a great photo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustin Posted June 16, 2018 Share #300 Posted June 16, 2018 What department was the cognizant procuring agency for the helmet covers? What is the specification number for the helmet cover? For example, ponchos were procured through the Bureau of Ordnance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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