USMC WWII "Frogskin" Covers - Rethinking The Norm

[ArchangelDM]

1 hour ago, pump 150 said:

 

I've had no luck as of yest finding the photo shown above by Archangel of the Marine on Okinawa.  Though the resolution found here is not what I would call conclusive IMHO. Though appearing "cut" like in nature, there is much symmetry found there in both alignment and placement of the four openings as found on a 42 Spec cover.  As we all know, not seeing all eight of the slits on each side in period photos due to placement of cover on the helmet, photo quality and lighting is very common.  Just my opinion until the high-res is found.

 

USMC45, appreciate the added video picture grabs to study.  Though as demonstrated here before, video and still video grabs of the era just seem to never be near the quality found in actual still photography of the same period as shown here from page 15.  Just some food for thought. 

Pump I would have to disagree on this one, that quality is pretty good and good enough to see the cover, HD or not although not conclusive  it’s the best photo to date quality wise. 
Im applying for a copy of the original in the book also 👍🏻 will post when I get it 

- Dean 

 

 

[pump 150]

24 minutes ago, ArchangelDM said:

Pump I would have to disagree on this one, that quality is pretty good and good enough to see the cover, HD or not although not conclusive  it’s the best photo to date quality wise. 
Im applying for a copy of the original in the book also 👍🏻 will post when I get it 

- Dean 

 

 

Would love to see it Dean. I’d be glad if it indeed turned out to be a no-slit model!  
 

As mentioned before here, only documents indicating the specific changes made over the many years of producing these covers, (with further documentation shown now in this thread indicating at least trying to make them into the late 1950’s) being the true only answer.

 

Many of the photos shown so far as “no doubt no-slit” (even when I claimed it myself in the past) have been overturned when the high-res found and studied. No disrespect intended here at all my friend, though settling for other than high-res examples to at least study further does not prove them as such IMHO.

 

I’m still hoping for an early-mid WWII starting of the no-slit production, though so far it has not been proven out. And who thought in the past that the USMC wanted these helmet covers made as late as 1956-1957?  So much more to learn……. 🙂

[pump 150]

…..That’s not saying continuing to study period photos and trying to find hi-res originals of them in order to try and confirm either way until such documents are found should not continue. I still do it all the time in search of answers. 

[ArchangelDM]

7 hours ago, pump 150 said:

…..That’s not saying continuing to study period photos and trying to find hi-res originals of them in order to try and confirm either way until such documents are found should not continue. I still do it all the time in search of answers. 

Agreed my friend 

[toitoine66]

Afro american marines landing on IWO JIMA 1945 we can see the slits on somes perspectives:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjzlkbQuiMM

 

[MCDUFF]

9 hours ago, toitoine66 said:

Afro american marines landing on IWO JIMA 1945 we can see the slits on somes perspectives:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjzlkbQuiMM

 

Great footage! Yes, I see slit covers. I like other detail like the life preserver around the lower waist, barrel cleaning rod still in barrel, and a Corpsman without cover with the yellow/ white disk on the rear of his helmet!

[toitoine66]

I m not quit sure but the guy in front plan seem to not have slits 

Iwo Jima 1945

 

 

 

[326thAEB]

I thought adding this very clear photo would add to the discussion. The marine on the right clearly has a No-Slit helmet cover and the other marines are wearing P44 camouflage uniforms. The photo was taken on Sept 26th 1952. I think this lends credence to the school of thought that Non-Slit covers were definitely made during ww2 but did not see widespread use until the Korean War. Very similarly where the P44 uniforms pictured here were produced during ww2 but saw limited use during ww2. However, they are seen quite commonly with Marine raiding/patrol parties during the Korean War. 

[Pegasus6]

Pretty clearly USMC non-slit on Okinawa and Iwo. And here is my no slit issued in 44 and worn by Marine in the Philippines.  I don't know how anyone can argue or debate that no slit covers were only post war. The younger generation thinks everyone had iPhones and 4k cameras amongst all thousands of marines from 42-45. It is so honestly tiresome explaining the differences between “fact and assumptions” and how the contract/supply and depot systems worked. And it wasn't until just a few months ago the debate over mosquito net versions became a fact that the “non split” bands were issued and made during WWII as well. A box with a contract date un-opened was found. All covers no band split: 1943… oh and theres a photo of what marines never “” did wear an EGA on the cover… this debate will be carried on via fb warriors and people creating new “terms”.

 

Sincerely,

Pegasus6

[pump 150]

Congrats on your grouping Pegasus, very nice. Would you happen to know when your Marine left the service, or have a photo of him wearing this helmet cover in 1944 for provenance?  Could it be possible that he was issued this one very late or just after the war ended possibly stateside or a main base?  If you do have a photo of this cover being worn in 1944 please share as I’m still in search of finding some. 
 

Preaching to the choir I’m sure, though it has been noted that these covers were often replaced when worn as they were thought of more along the lines of misc. uniform items.  Unlike Vietnam/GWOT etc where helmet covers are worn for year long tours until almost unrecognizable, it’s well documented when first coming ashore most all wear new uniforms including helmet covers.  Exceptions always apply I know depending on assignment.  
 

As for the two period photos of Iwo and Okinawa, can you say which of these Marines are wearing the non-slit covers in your opinion?  Certain ones or all shown?

 

As for the EGA, it has been well documented that the uniform EGA insignia was worn rarely by individual Marines during WWII. The only issue I’ve seen is the painted/stenciled documented worn only after WWII at this point. If anyone has a photo of that type being worn in WWII please do share!

 

As for the Mosquito net, that has also been well documented being worn in WWII by period photos. Though there are three known sew and color versions discussed on this forum in the past. I did post a thread asking about those found packaged including a FSN tag which would indicate either repackaging or producing them post WWII looking for information with no firm conclusions either way offered at this point. 
 

Thanks for posting and continuing the conversation. 

[Pegasus6]

Pump

1 hour ago, pump 150 said:

Sorry, hit the enter button by mistake. Mods can delete above if wanted.
 

Congrats on your grouping Pegasus, very nice. Would you happen to know when your Marine left the service, or have a photo of him wearing this helmet cover in 1944 for provenance?  Could it be possible that he was issued this one very late or just after the war ended possibly stateside or a main base?  If you do have a photo of this cover being worn in 1944 please share as I’m still in search of finding some. 
 

Preaching to the choir I’m sure, though it has been noted that these covers were often replaced when worn as they were thought of more along the lines of misc. uniform items.  Unlike Vietnam/GWOT etc where helmet covers are worn for year long tours until almost unrecognizable, it’s well documented when first coming ashore most all wear new uniforms including helmet covers.  Exceptions always apply I know depending on assignment.  
 

As for the two period photos of Iwo and Okinawa, can you say which of these Marines are wearing the non-slit covers in your opinion?  Certain ones or all shown?

 

As for the EGA, it has been well documented that the uniform EGA insignia was worn rarely by individual Marines during WWII. The only issue I’ve seen is the painted/stenciled documented worn only after WWII at this point. If anyone has a photo of that type being worn in WWII please do share!

 

As for the Mosquito net, that has also been well documented being worn in WWII by period photos. Though there are three known sew and color versions discussed on this forum in the past. I did post a thread asking about those found packaged including a FSN tag which would indicate either repackaging or producing them post WWII looking for information with no firm conclusions either way offered at this point. 
 

Thanks for posting and continuing the conversation. 

 

Pump,

 

To answer some questions in order and as best I can, with fidelity and more photos. Also I already answered some of your questions in the previous post with either photos or info that you didn't see, otherwise you wouldn’t have asked So here it all is again and or in response. Best I can order again. Lots of info and time in the response.

 

1. He being PFC Price, left service in 45. The squadron VMSB 142- as part of MAG 32 was in the Pacific  Jan-July of 45 and well documented missions/losses locations etc. thus all the paperwork in my additional photograph below. Joining in 43, deploying moving into theatre in late 44, combat Jan 45.
 

2. I have some photos of him overseas none show the helmet. As a mechanic/gunner they rarely needed to wear the helmet. Of his service he only kept his dress uniform (family kept) and these items as shown in additional photos (Helmet, USMC FS/FB USMC repaint, (color) worn but not abused) his cartridge belt, dog ear canteen cover, canteen, jungle first aid kit, some EGA/Tie clip and the Silk Map of their combat AO. He hitchhiked home. These items were in one trunk together. Extremely unlikely that he would have kept these unless they were always his and kept them together esp given the silk map. Trunk was in attic, none of the gear was ever “” displayed to the family as some would say stand in/tribute “” items ie as mentioned previously in this thread an airborne guy sold a 1950s m1c stating it was his WWII lid. I spent quite a lot of time validating the items and talking with the family (they didn't even know these items existed (estate sale common ptractice the family legally isnt there because items are being sold and assets of sold funds split per a will, alas the estate company empties the estate out, advertises and sells). I backtracked from original buyer at estate sale and I contacted family after purchasing it from said buyer.  (I being second owner) the family his son specifically, was astounded, contacted the estate sale company talked to the manager whom confirmed he himself (estate sale manager) pulled the trunk out of the attic and these were the only military items in the trunk, told to son. The other items were old magazines junk “” ect. I spent many hours talking to Prices’ Son. Sharing stories and records back and forth.  So yes I believe there to be very little chance this was not the one he was indeed issued/wore and took home. Theres no reason to surmise otherwise. One generally does not hitchhike home with a helmet/gear thats not sentimental. Alas I had to purchase my ACH that I wore in Afghanistan when I got out of the military just like back then you don’t just get to take your gear home. Items home are exceptions not the rule. In fact, the majority of Marine Corps personnel files show what somebody left service with and I’ve never seen (helmets/field gear) in general listed. Which also tells you yes I pretty familiar with what gear looks like after period of time and abuse with sweat, garbage, gunk n funk, rust etc.. looks like over time. 
 

3. The Marine on Iwo is wearing an EGA on his cover front row left… appears 3D not stamped. Thats why I posted the photo… it may even be in the photos that the EGA has been mounted pin back through the cover and onto the helmet due to the way the helmet cover seemingly is laying on the shell. But to me, it does not look like a stamp and it is definitely a large EGA.
 

4. Mosq nets. Saw the thread. I went through the task of contacting the seller months ago regards the mosquito net box and contract label I posted. It was a NOS box filled, unopened. And you can see the spec dates clearly and it is of the later version of color and solid band with the original 1943 labeled box. Nothing was repacked…. And seller sent me additional photos of the box label. I was sure to ask. I was as curious when I saw them listed for sale. Also the company label is indeed a known contract for them. So thats no longer an assumption but a fact of a variant made during 1943. There you go. 

 

5. The two Marines on Okinawa: in the higher resolution image (I have) not the grainy water down version the forum posts. IMHO its not even a tossup but pretty conclusive the soldier on the right has no slits… the resolution is super crisp as well and his cover has shrunk down considering its no slit cut for chinstraps and in good condition. Usually the slits get pulled open some when the shrinking occurs. Or its pulled tight and cut for the chinstrap. His is uncut and tight. The Marine on the left however… cover is in more worn shape and tho with what appears to be tears are also shaded slices I see what appears to be 3 slits or openings.  It is Also interesting in the photo soldier on the right has a T handle shovel in a modified folding shovel cover and hand applied camo on his jungle first aid pouch. 
 

Being thorough is something I pride myself with. As a retired Army Officer and collector for 25+ years I share my insight and collection via RenewHistory@FB.

Vr

Pegasus6 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[pump 150]

Appreciate the reply back Pegasus6 and additional photos, as said congrats on your fine grouping from this Marine. As I stated way back in this thread I’d never directly question anyone’s grouping at this point on authenticity, only ask if photos are present and offer questions in order to try and pin down further. The goal here is to try and find as much info as possible in order to possibly close some gaps. 
 

I agree the Okinawa photo in particular is a great one to study further if possible, here is another photo of this detail on Iwo from a different angle showing the 3D EGA as you mentioned. 
 

 

 

I chatted with the seller of those Mosquito Nets as well and got that tag photo. I’ve seen the info listed on the tag before, but not a real tag so another good piece of history there. As I mentioned in the thread on the nets, while produced in WWII for sure, with the FSN packaged examples my question would still remain if they were also produced post WWII as often thought not. 
 

Still many unknowns out there, with my research shown here the USMC were asking for funds to produce camouflage helmet covers in particular as late as 1956-1957. Nice post, thanks and hope the group here can keep the research moving forward!