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USMC WWII "Frogskin" Covers - Rethinking The Norm


pump 150
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  • 2 months later...
  • 2 months later...
JerryTheGerman
On 4/29/2020 at 3:20 PM, Bugme said:

Not to distract but, the sharpie Sgt. stripes look pretty authentic too. You got the collectors who say: "That was never done". And here you got a period pic saying: "Uh, yeah, it was done."

Speaking of this, I was watching a Tarawa film of the corpsman on the beach and I believe I have proof sergeant stripes were used even earlier than Iwo and Okinawa! 

A600E645-8E2E-4729-B515-351E5C31A27F.jpeg

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On 6/25/2021 at 7:16 PM, iron bender said:

This Marine is Evangelo Clonis. They made a USPS stamp of another image of him. I've been to his bar in Santa Fe

I think this has been discussed on USMF before, but this man has been convincingly re-indentified as Thomas Ellis Underwood.  This link is to a series of very interesting articles on the subject:

 

https://1-24thmarines.com/research/the-weary-warrior/

 

 

619435993_USMCSAIPANMARINE-Copy.jpg.d1339cd3c829ca20705543f85b360ec2.jpg

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8 hours ago, GMPETE said:

I think this has been discussed on USMF before, but this man has been convincingly re-indentified as Thomas Ellis Underwood.  This link is to a series of very interesting articles on the subject:

 

https://1-24thmarines.com/research/the-weary-warrior/

 

 

619435993_USMCSAIPANMARINE-Copy.jpg.d1339cd3c829ca20705543f85b360ec2.jpg

Very interesting read. I concur. Not Klonis. I guess research would have helped on my part. Guess I just always believed the story. Thanks for the update! Jordan

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I'd also like to add that the interwebs has been an excellent resource over the last 20+ years for proving and disproving images from WW2. The Suribachi flag raising comes to mind. I'll also add Mr. Underwood and I share the identical scar under our right eye!😄

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54 minutes ago, iron bender said:

I'd also like to add that the interwebs has been an excellent resource over the last 20+ years for proving and disproving images from WW2. The Suribachi flag raising comes to mind. I'll also add Mr. Underwood and I share the identical scar under our right eye!😄

You were right to name him though. He’s been mis-ID’d as Klonis for so long I think most everyone had accepted it as correct.  1stbattion24thmarines did a beautiful job straightening it out.  Lots of slitted cover shots there as well.

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I think this is a great image, I’ve added the video that you can find on YouTube with the exact time.

 

I couldn’t see any slots on 2 of the covers 

 

- Dean

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  • 2 months later...
  • 4 weeks later...

I'm adding these two documents into this thread as they seem to pertain to new information learned concerning USMC helmet cover production during a previously unknown timeframe of the 1950's. 

 

Here on page 732 - from February 11, 1955 in testimony during Congressional Hearings for the Budget of fiscal year 1956 (July 1955-June 1956), an increase in funding is noted under "Procurement And Maintenance Of Advanced Base Components".  The reply back for the direct increase of funds includes - "This specifically is to procure rifle grenade launchers and camouflage helmet covers, in order to fill the mobilization requirement for these advance base components."

 

What type of helmet cover or "model" is not known, or if these were made by an outside private source instead of the USMC Depot of Supply, or total numbers produced.  It's surely documented somewhere to be researched further and revealed in the future.  However, it does seem to open the door that the USMC camouflage helmet cover timeline of production as known by collectors in the past needs to be questioned with a possibility of them being produced during the Korean War period or later by the USMC Depot of Supply or another outside source beyond what is currently known and thought to be accurate.  

 

277982756_HELMETCOVER1955-19565.PNG.2cd9d949ae97b6f7de338ea0b37ce80b.PNG

 

1834138055_HELMETCOVERPRODUCTION1955-1956-Copy.PNG.8443f8ba442766fcae4f989694600ef7.PNG

 

 

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Great find of info. Fiscal year of 1956 will be July 1 1955 to June 30, 1956. Since no examples with that date have been found made by a contracted company they were either made by the Depot or not made at all.

 

Since this is open debate discussion before Congress funding could have been denied. I'll have to see if my Annual Reports cover this year and reflect any changers like this

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24 minutes ago, Alec said:

Great find of info. Fiscal year of 1956 will be July 1 1955 to June 30, 1956. Since no examples with that date have been found made by a contracted company they were either made by the Depot or not made at all.

 

Since this is open debate discussion before Congress funding could have been denied. I'll have to see if my Annual Reports cover this year and reflect any changers like this


Thanks Alec, 

 

I knew you would be a good one to first be able to investigate this with your research, much appreciated. Mine continues as well.

 

In case you did not see this one I posted earlier, it also shows a 1953 hearing with General Hill explaining Depot production during the Korean War period and prior on 60% of clothing still being made at the Depot.  Also quickly explaining private vendors, problems encountered, and inspectors needed. 
 

I brought both of these up so to show the continued large scale Depot production during the Korean War, with a possibility of Korean wartime helmet cover production potentially worth further investigation since the WWII Depot made were unmarked.  Though viewed 400 times, no one touched that one with a ten foot pole! ….LOL

 

 

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On 6/29/2021 at 3:01 AM, ArchangelDM said:

With the use of advanced photo enhancement I could not see any slits. 

96B3A249-0D82-4F4B-AC64-2CFF84C9F991.jpeg

 

The addition of the rubber inner tube band would also indicate possibly no slits as the purpose of the band would to be to secure camoflage material if needed. I recall the bands were first seen in Iwo? any others seen prior? 

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ArchangelDM
3 minutes ago, doyler said:

 

The addition of the rubber inner tube band would also indicate possibly no slits as the purpose of the band would to be to secure camoflage material if needed. I recall the bands were first seen in Iwo? any others seen prior? 


Makes sense to me - funny enough I have a whole grouping to a forward observer that was on Iwo Jima. 
whole rig is filthy with black like dust and dirt, 

All his combat gear came out of his belongings and it’s UNIS marked. 
Helmet has a non slit cover and is named to him, his last battle was Iwo Jima 

 

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6 hours ago, doyler said:

 

The addition of the rubber inner tube band would also indicate possibly no slits as the purpose of the band would to be to secure camoflage material if needed. I recall the bands were first seen in Iwo? any others seen prior? 

 

That's a good thought doyler, and the use of inner tube bands themselves I've looked into.  So far anyway, I've only seen these worn by those of the 3rd Marine Division on Iwo Jima as a more unit based type, Specifically 3-21 and 2-9 Marines.  If anyone else can confirm their use more, than please add for us to learn.

 

As for the bands used specifically due to the no-slit cover, I'm not sure.  Iwo itself was known as not vegetation heavy compared to other assaults, with most covers seen worn Brownside out to reflect that fact.  And there are photos of Marines wearing the bands with the slitted covers.  But, more to research and learn...LOL.  I have not noticed the bands worn heavily later on Okinawa which was much more known as a Greenside out cover use with heavier vegetation.

 

Any others with info, corrections, or more photos feel free to add.

 

3/21 Marines, they are all wearing Greenside out -

 

3-21_Marines_crawling_forward_under_fire_at_Airfield_2_Iwo_Jima_24feb.jpg.4efc443fd35a1cb2add1cd4fc2aa9f68.jpg

 

865265224_3-21_Marines_Fighting_For_Airfield_2_on_Iwo_Jima_24feb-Copy.jpg.b3b22fb56d06a9f95e9897fdd02c608b.jpg

 

2/9 Marines, they wear Brownside out -

 

708482331_2-9marinesiwo.jpg.c9077d0791ba2421c2c86ae7956b3d48.jpg

 

446850604_2-9marines4.jpg.72d0244d7cd10cc6431df79a507e9035.jpg

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  • 5 months later...

Probably the best and clearest photo of what looks like a non slit cover.  looks like the marine has made the slits in this one, also clarity is extremely good. 
 

photo was taken on Okinawa 

 

really reminds me of my One, he was a forward observer on Okinawa for the howitzers. Pics below 

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JerryTheGerman
12 minutes ago, ArchangelDM said:

Probably the best and clearest photo of what looks like a non slit cover.  looks like the marine has made the slits in this one, also clarity is extremely good. 
 

photo was taken on Okinawa 

 

really reminds me of my One, he was a forward observer on Okinawa for the howitzers. Pics below 

3A131721-5DC3-4431-86AA-1C4B55BE4B96.jpeg

18EE9980-C285-446D-95D3-B734FC0DB8F3.jpeg

479F5E83-2ABE-44F7-BFE9-ABA56945D653.jpeg

3B77BEFE-4EA0-42A2-B0EB-EF31D2780484.jpeg

62865675-EDF3-43AE-A5BD-6368B3A67C1E.jpeg

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7DE7EB8A-1EE0-4B43-B913-4E18573AD853.jpeg

Great helmet and photo! I really like the wear and tear on the cover, truly a combat seen helmet 

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  • 3 months later...

Good evening,

 

Was any other information found?

 

When I look at the last picture, I think it is indeed in first model.

 

Can we now say that the first model was used during the ww2?

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23 hours ago, USMC45 said:

Good evening,

 

Was any other information found?

 

When I look at the last picture, I think it is indeed in first model.

 

Can we now say that the first model was used during the ww2?


Im happy with this photo as it stands, it’s high Res enough for me, and the marine behind him you can clearly see the slits, the marine in front appears to have none apart from ones made from use etc. 

As far as it being a “1st pattern” I would call it a 3rd late war pattern and the non slit theory being that it saved time not putting in the slits, saved pennies and sped up production. Also very few marines are actually seen with foliage in their helmet slits, yes it happened but the majority of the time it’s just the cover. 
 

Also to add again I have a full grouping all named to a forward observer on Iwo Jima - non slit and named with tons of volcanic dirt on it. He came back stateside after Iwo. His helmet cover really is the same as the one pictured with slits from use in the field. 
 

- Dean 
 

 

E97910E7-473E-4F0A-8866-1A2F08166E41.jpeg

BA708BE2-21F5-4C89-8653-D29E5C5BF5AE.jpeg

C5317E71-A457-47DC-88B8-B99A7529F2ED.jpeg

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Good evening,

 

Amazing picture !

 

After watching several reports on Okinawa, I took some screenshots that seem to show first patterns.

 

 

IMG_20230117_204231.jpg

IMG_20230117_204151.jpg

IMG_20230117_204139.jpg

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On 1/12/2021 at 3:20 PM, pump 150 said:

Yes, interesting pic Blueprint, thanks for adding.  IMO we'd have to find the original high resolution copy to tell for sure though as I've described in the past in order to say either way. 

 

I get how many feel on the subject by what was written and discussed.  I also fully believed that theory as well until really digging into it much further years ago which has changed my mind only because of what consistently just keeps showing up when you are able to find the clear original frames.  

 

I hear many on this forum keep saying there are plenty of photos from WWII showing without a doubt the so called "1st Model" in use, but that has been found not to be the case on a large scale in almost every instance here when the actual true original photo is shown and further examined.  No matter when the photo was taken during WWII.  Are there possibilities, you bet.  But so far the "1st Model" theory just doesn't hold water any more with the documents found and early photos showing how described in the 9-42 spec. IMHO.  Let alone the sheer number of the no-slit covers being seen used post WWII.   

 

How the slits appear as per open/closed, how the cover is worn on the helmet dictating where to actually look to find them, true clarity of the available photos due to lighting, other environmental effects, or just plain multiple copies over time of the same photo all affect what is being seen in each photo....even in pretty darn good looking pictures. 

 

Does that mean the so called "1st Model" wasn't worn in WWII?  Nope, However every single original clear high res picture so far available from WWII shows a helmet cover with foliage slits in place as per the 9-42 specification.  Why is that?  There's been all kinds of good theories as to why.  Used only early on, photography not as good back then, etc., etc., etc..... 

 

Believe me, I'd love to find a quality photo from WWII clearly showing the so called "1st Model" in use at any time so that we could at least find a definitive starting point to work further back in time searching until hopefully some sort of documents show up for us to fully clarify.  Once again...Photo quality is everything! 

 

There's been multiple quick "screen shots" taken from online WWII videos posted recently stating as "No doubt 1st Model".   That would be a "possible at best" IMO at this point from what has been researched so far.  None of those films have clearly shown what is really being seen as we've already found in the past when looking at different frames or the technology of the day for showing true clarity in motion pictures.  Just look back here how hard it is to find the truth in still photos many times.  But, it can be said that still photography (as shown here) can be outstanding during the WWII period when originals are found.

 

Here's a video example.  A quick grab while playing I took (admit not the best out there, but a good shot showing some guy on a telephone wearing the green side out which looks to have maybe slits, along with a guy wearing the brown side out with good overall shapes shown but no visible foliage slits possibly being a so called "1st Model".

 

908249340_usmciwogeneralnames2-Copy.PNG.2dc59770dcf27ca5d3e6b7606737d129.PNG

 

 

As with many times, the photographers traveled in pools.  And within seconds of this video frame being caught the following still picture is taken in the exact same location.  5th Marine Division on Iwo Jima.  Brig. Gen Hermle and Maj. Gen. Rockey.  The difference in what is shown about everything here is very dramatic in the original high res still shot compared to the good overall color film, even when viewing at full speed.

 

1212220925_usmciwojimageneral-Copy(2)-Copy.jpg.37d68b7df673867edd08278fd98d1019.jpg

 

 

Once again, the earliest known photo to date of a WWII USMC Frogskin helmet cover being worn. Official USMC photo dated November 1942 provided here by a USMF contributor to this thread

 

314028292_USMC1942COVER2.jpg.f4bdb6ad12738f68111c35a653b6fe21.jpg

 

Inbound to Tarawa in 1943.  All these Marines wear helmet covers with foliage slits as specified per 9-42 document.  Photo quality at full resolution is outstanding.

 

930683836_TARAWA2063754-Copy.jpg.5e540ffa218c81d1da28c1f0d26e4f43.jpg

 

Any photos out there of this quality showing the so called "1st Model" in use during any period of WWII for us all to look over and study are most welcome!  I'm always happy to be proved wrong if the truth can be found for all interested (myself included)  :)

 

 

I've had no luck as of yest finding the photo shown above by Archangel of the Marine on Okinawa.  Though the resolution found here is not what I would call conclusive IMHO. Though appearing "cut" like in nature, there is much symmetry found there in both alignment and placement of the four openings as found on a 42 Spec cover.  As we all know, not seeing all eight of the slits on each side in period photos due to placement of cover on the helmet, photo quality and lighting is very common.  Just my opinion until the high-res is found.

 

USMC45, appreciate the added video picture grabs to study.  Though as demonstrated here before, video and still video grabs of the era just seem to never be near the quality found in actual still photography of the same period as shown here from page 15.  Just some food for thought. 

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