Jump to content

USMC WWII "Frogskin" Covers - Rethinking The Norm


pump 150
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • 2 weeks later...
Schnicklfritz

Here is some food for thought on the time frame that these non-slit helmet covers were produced. This is just from my view point of what I have seen over the years. From what I have been lucky enough to handle and have in the collection over the years, it appears to me that the Marines changed the base color of their camouflage cloth twice over the course of the war. Starting off with a base color of a "golden" tan, then to a light sage green then finally to a dark sage green. The photo below illustrates this.

 

right side of photo: unissued set of P42 camo with "golden" tan base

middle of photo: Unissued pair of P42 pants with light sage green base

left of photo: unissued jacket with dark sage green base(jacket is from a WW2 Marine Veteran and came with the P42 above)

 

The golden tan and light sage green cloth is seen on P42 and P44 camo. The dark sage green is seen only on P44 camo. I have yet to see P42 camo made from this particular dark green based cloth. From this we can deduce that the early golden camo and the light green camo is early to mid-war usage, with the dark sage camo being at least late war.

 

 

post-115-0-39234100-1517082087_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Schnicklfritz

Here are a few unissued non-slit covers in comparison to the late dark green sage cloth. Again, just from my experience over the years, I have only seen these non-slit covers made out of this dark sage green cloth. This includes the Blue Anchor made covers, the covers with large and small solid EGA stencils that are non-slit covers. I have yet to see one that is in unissued or lightly faded that is made from anything other than this dark sage green cloth. Used covers are tricky as they tend to fade to a golden color from dirt, etc., so we can't really use them as proof positive that the non-slit covers were made from other cloths.

post-115-0-34227700-1517082606_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Schnicklfritz

I'm not saying that this is conclusive proof that the non-slit covers are not early war. But I have yet to see one made of anything other than the dark shade of sage green cloth that matches up to the P44 camo top as illustrated here. If someone does indeed have one, I'm sure we would appreciate it being posted.

 

My thought is that these non-slit covers are a late war production for the invasion of Japan. The step to sew the buttonholes in the cover being eliminated as a time saver in order to speed up production to supply the Marines in time for the invasion scheduled in November 1945. The invasion was predicted to cause causalities into the hundreds of thousands, therefore a large supply of uniforms were needed to supply a large influx of Marines into the service in a short time. With the end of the war, these cover perhaps did not make it to the theater in time to be issued in WW2, only to end up in surplus supplies to be issued later on when needed.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice set of posts here fritz, I would agree that this is another great piece to the puzzle. While there are surely shading differences per specific dye lots, there certainly does appear to be a darkening of the overall pattern as your pics show, including not relying on only the exposed exterior to determine the original factory color.

 

It was brought up earlier of a new process in order to stop fading (Page 5, Post#120), and although those supporting documents have not been found as of yet it, many of the 9-42 spec helmet covers are a lighter shade than the so-called 1st and 2nd Models that I have noticed.

 

Below is the greenside of a 9-42 spec helmet cover (so-called 3rd Model) that is mint never been on a helmet condition in the truest colors I could achieve for the photos. Note the two differing dye lot colors, however neither is as dark as the other two models. While some of the 3rd may be found darker due to production date, I have not encountered the 1st or 2nd in this lighter shade to date.

 

post-98601-0-98775700-1517120510_thumb.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For comparison here are three additional helmet covers displayed on helmets

 

Top is a different 9-42 spec 3rd Model also in mint unused condition

 

Left is a 1st Model in unissued condition with a post war applied smaller EGA

 

Right is a 1953 Blue Anchor contract cover in unissued condition

 

post-98601-0-07024800-1517121351_thumb.jpeg

 

 

If there can be any other information shared in this area of the discussion please feel free.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Fritz,

 

Thanks for the photos and thoughts. I think it's definitely another big step in the right direction. Finding photos of the "1st pattern" covers in use during WWII has certainly proven to be difficult, and those who claimed to have crystal clear photos seem to have gone silent. Finding photos of P44 camo in use has always been tough as well, as they were not really issued on mass to any degree. A few rare photos exist, from late in the war. Here is one old thread that shows some interesting photos of P44:

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/5894-usmc-p44-hbt-camo-in-use/

 

The no slit covers have another similarity with P44 camo. No slit covers and P44 uniforms are much more often available and sold on e-bay than slit covers and P42 camo uniforms.

 

If we assume the no slit covers were manufactured at the same time as the P44 uniforms, we would still need to find some photographic proof they actually made it overseas before wars end. Maybe in some very minor occurrences such as with the P44 uniforms. Or maybe they were made slightly after or simply didn't make it overseas.

 

I'm glad this thread has remained pinned as this topic has proven to be something worthy of longterm discussion, with new information still surfacing.

 

-Steve

Link to comment
Share on other sites

juodonnell2012

I'm not saying that this is conclusive proof that the non-slit covers are not early war. But I have yet to see one made of anything other than the dark shade of sage green cloth that matches up to the P44 camo top as illustrated here. If someone does indeed have one, I'm sure we would appreciate it being posted.

 

My thought is that these non-slit covers are a late war production for the invasion of Japan. The step to sew the buttonholes in the cover being eliminated as a time saver in order to speed up production to supply the Marines in time for the invasion scheduled in November 1945. The invasion was predicted to cause causalities into the hundreds of thousands, therefore a large supply of uniforms were needed to supply a large influx of Marines into the service in a short time. With the end of the war, these cover perhaps did not make it to the theater in time to be issued in WW2, only to end up in surplus supplies to be issued later on when needed.

 

I would like to point out there have been identified veteran groupings from Iwo Jima that have first pattern covers so they were undeniably issued during ww2.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

juodonnell2012,

 

I have no doubt that Marines picked up some first pattern covers. If those are the covers they wore in combat overseas or not is another question. I think we all remember the champagne rune SS helmets with provenance, or the jkash M1 helmets with provenance. Linking to a few groupings that include this item I don't think is really solid proof one way or another. For hygiene reasons combat uniforms were often burnt/destroyed after battle and they were given new utilities, perhaps Marines went threw helmet covers this way as well.

 

Regards,

-Steve

Link to comment
Share on other sites

juodonnell2012

However Steve, these are all from veterans or their families with rock solid provenance. None of the veterans that these groupings came from saw post war service either as far as their records show , I just don't think we should rule them out. Best regards, Justin

juodonnell2012,

 

I have no doubt that Marines picked up some first pattern covers. If those are the covers they wore in combat overseas or not is another question. I think we all remember the champagne rune SS helmets with provenance, or the jkash M1 helmets with provenance. Linking to a few groupings that include this item I don't think is really solid proof one way or another. For hygiene reasons combat uniforms were often burnt/destroyed after battle and they were given new utilities, perhaps Marines went threw helmet covers this way as well.

 

Regards,

-Steve

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At this point with what is currently known I see no reason why the mentioned helmets above obtained from veterans families or estates could not be original pieces as there is no direct proof as of yet that I know of showing the so-called "1st Model" no-slit helmet cover was not issued during WWII. The question raised here (and talked about previously by some in PM's) was when was the helmet cover currently found on the helmet issued to these surviving marines during the WWII period?

 

These particular marines were very fortunate to survive these historic engagements, however as records show most began to leave Iwo Jima in particular during the April 1945 period for bases on Guam or Hawaii and such. Their role then, along with just about every other marine not directly engaged was to rest, refit, and train hard for the upcoming invasion of Japan planned for November 1945. It was nearly four months later when the war ended in August before they were suddenly given a new lease on life and then most were either slated for post war occupation duty or began the process of being released from service in late 1945 early 1946.

 

If the "1st Model" no-slit helmet cover truly was a late war made piece from what has been shown so far, could it not have been initially issued during this 1945 refit period? It would help to explain why the photos from the battles show an overwhelming use of the 9-42 spec helmet covers, while some of those found from surviving veterans helmets are seen with the no-slit type.

 

I am not saying conclusively that this is what happened as there are no supporting documents other than what has been shown here in period photos and pattern color changes, there is still much to be learned. Just that it is also a possibility to consider and another piece of the puzzle to try and find the answer too.

 

As mentioned previously about the thoughts on the upcoming invasion of Japan and shown by forum member Alec with his great find from the USMC HQ Bulletin showing item production by the USMC Depot during the 1944 year, The Marine Corps was planning for a huge prolonged effort...."camouflaged helmet covers (1,125,140)"....so what could possibly be a way to lower cost and speed production of over a million helmet covers in a single year? Just some more things to think about and investigate....lol

 

post-98601-0-20714700-1517243863_thumb.jpg

 

All comments, documents, or supporting photos are always welcome...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...