Jump to content
  • advertisement_alt
  • advertisement_alt
  • advertisement_alt

Vietnam Era M16


New Romantic
 Share

Recommended Posts

New Romantic

I'm considering building my own XM16-E1 using http://www.mooremilitaria.com/reference.htm as a guide. I figured it would be cheaper rather than shell out cash on an AR-15 then spending extra to replace the upper receiver, buttstock, etc.

 

Or I can go with http://www.fulton-armory.com/FAR-15-Service.htm But the upper receiver doesn't have the forward assist.

 

Looking at the repro lower receivers on http://nodakspud.com/AR%20Lowers.htm it doesn't look like they can be used with full auto, so I don't have to be concerned with the legalities of owning an automatic weapon.

 

What legal guidelines do I need to adhere to and what kind of weapons license do I need? I've never owned a firearm nor have I ever considered buying one. Any help and suggestions is appreciated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Darktrooper

First off you need to check what your state laws are concerning "assault" style weapons. Some states Decided to keep the wording of the original assault weapons ban, and prevent weapons from having bayonet studs on them. Other states have a ban on how large the magazine capacity is on the weapon, CA for instance prohibits more than 10 round detachable magazines.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

New Romantic

I checked my state's gun laws and they don't have issues concerning the ownership of assault weapons. By the way I live in VA.

 

I was also considering this

http://www.vietnamwar-guns.com/shop/product_details.php?p=18

 

While my primary use of the rifle would be living history I may participate in a reenactment someday, hence the need for a weapon that can fire blanks. I wonder how the cap gun would compare to the sound of blanks from a real M16.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

M16's are weird.

 

Even though the AR-15 lower recievers are technically semi-auto, if you add a simple "auto-sear" (of which if you have one bought before they were banned they are "legal to own) AND have an M16 bolt they will fire full auto no problem.

 

Same as if you take the receiver and drill a hole and add in the correct sear. Bingo- full auto.

 

So the ATF has some arcane rules about owning an AR-15 lower receiever AND an M16 bolt and carrier. Supposedly owning both means it is so easy to make it fire full auto that it falls into the full auto catagory.

 

DON'T EVEN THINK OF DOING THIS- as they WILL ruin your life!!!!

 

I am not sure of the measurments of the one you want ot make. It may be too short to be considered a rifle, and so you may have to have the supressor permanently attached to the barrell. You'll have to check on the legality of that.

 

Building an AR-15 is not hard at all, and the only registered part is the lower receiver- everything else can be bought througth the mails easily and legally. The only really tricky part is getting the barrell seated correctly - and checking the headspace. Which you can buy the tools to do, or have a gunsmith do it for you. Unless you buy a complete upper receiver/barrell combo.

 

Although you may want to talk to one of the companies selling AR-15 parts as if you buy the majority from them they may be willi to do some assembly or help you. I built one way back when from parts, and then of course had to dump my M16 bolt and carrier. I still have not gotten around to buying an AR 15 bolt as I just never fired it. I probably should do it soon before they ban them as well. Hey, maybe that is what my rebate check is for!

 

Now once you have the lower receiver, its not that much more expensive to get an M16A1 style upper receiver and barrel, and the right stock. Which allows you to swap back and forth to a standard M16A1 version.

 

I've bought some parts in the past from http://www.sherluk.com

 

I'm sure there are a lot more places to buy M16 parts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

New Romantic

Thank you for the extremely helpful info Jon. I don't plan to covert the weapon to full auto- I'm 26 going on 27 and I don't want to screw up my future!

 

Since I was in the Army National Guard I do have experience assembling the M16, well A2. I see I can purchase a complete upper with barrell so that's no problem. Putting the lower together with trigger mechanism may be a bit more complicated though. Using Moore Militaria's ref I see it would cost about $700-$750.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

New Romantic
So the ATF has some arcane rules about owning an AR-15 lower receiever AND an M16 bolt and carrier. Supposedly owning both means it is so easy to make it fire full auto that it falls into the full auto catagory.

 

Are the AR-15 bolts compatible with the M16A1 upper?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hell, everything's illegal in Boston. But you can own them if you have the "large capacity mag license" which can be hard to get depending upon what town you live in. Forget any class 3 weapons. And generally a and gunlicense is impossible to get unless you live in certain towns with "nice" police. (Unless the supreme court rules differently in the near future!)

 

Live an hour north in New Hampshire and live it up.

 

I kind of misspoke, as the deal is really its illegal if you have the M16 bolt and all M16 lower receiver parts. It is just hard for most people to tell the doifference from AR-15 and M16 lowr Rec parts, but the bolt is easy to tell- so most people just make sure the bolt is an AR-15 one.

 

My former AR-15 had every single part on it was ex-M16 parts, except for the lower receiver- which the only real difference was no hole to mount the sear in.

 

This is an area you want to be a little anal on, as IF some officer wants to hassle you the laws are so weird that they can claim something in the field, even if not true, and then you're stuck. So it is best to know something about the law so you can stand up for yourself and point out why it is legal.

 

Go read some of the articles at ww.AR15.com It gets really weird when dealing with pre and post ban weapons. I guess the best way to ban weapons is to confuse everyone so much that their brain melts..

 

my advice? Forget Nam and just buy a Garand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

New Romantic

Thanks again Jon,

 

So if I stick with an AR15 lower and AR15 bolt I'll be safe- I just need to haver the lower receiver registered.

 

I can't forget Nam, that was my father's war. I no longer collect WWII and that's outside of my area of interest now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I checked my state's gun laws and they don't have issues concerning the ownership of assault weapons. By the way I live in VA.

 

I was also considering this

http://www.vietnamwar-guns.com/shop/product_details.php?p=18

 

While my primary use of the rifle would be living history I may participate in a reenactment someday, hence the need for a weapon that can fire blanks. I wonder how the cap gun would compare to the sound of blanks from a real M16.

 

I think this would be a very good choice for reenactments, real firearms have too much legal issues red tape

 

firearms laws are getting more restrictive every year, a non firing replica or blank gun is a good choice for a reenactor

Link to comment
Share on other sites

New Romantic
I think this would be a very good choice for reenactments, real firearms have too much legal issues red tape

 

firearms laws are getting more restrictive every year, a non firing replica or blank gun is a good choice for a reenactor

 

Hi Bolo, yes I was considering that cap firing model. Looks like the real thing. But my concern was how the cap firing model would sound compared to an actual M16 firing blanks- ie the cap firing model may sound different.

 

By the way I see you like my WWI doughboy w/ gas mask thumbsup.gif !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, adding an auto sear and an M16 BCG will NOT make an AR-15 fire in full auto. There are other fire control parts (and receiver machining for most) that are necessary and many people post-AWB use M16 BCG's with no problems.

 

Check out the Retro Forum on AR15.com for a lot of help and great resources. I actually had almost completed my USAF GAU-5/A clone, but a friend needed my SP1 upper and I had an M4 upper so... Yeah.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First off I would caution anyone on this post that talking about converting self loaders into full auto's (however vaguely you do so) can be considered "conspiracy to manufacture an automatic weapon" so be very careful. Yes you will probably win your case in court but is it really worth the 15K it will cost you?

 

As far as answering the other question you had about the sound differences, a cap gun will never be even close when it comes to sound quality and decibel level. That being said if you truly are moving to Boston then that is honestly your only option.

 

Gary

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow, I just reread my post and need to amend it badly. An auto sear by itself will not allow an AR15 to fire full auto even with the hole drilled to install it. You would need M16 fire control group parts as well as an M16 bolt carrier. THAT SAID, an auto sear is by definition in and of itself a machine gun per the NFA. An auto sear must be registered as a machine gun to be legal and it must be installed in a registered machine gun receiver to be legal. Again, any futher questions, go to www.ar15.com and check out the legal forum.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow, I just reread my post and need to amend it badly. An auto sear by itself will not allow an AR15 to fire full auto even with the hole drilled to install it. .... THAT SAID, an auto sear is by definition in and of itself a machine gun per the NFA. ...

 

A couple of points of order... First, an M16 "auto sear"/safety sear is not a machinegun unless registered as such. The factory/"mil-Spec" safety sear is not amchinegun any more than an M16 trigger or selector is. What you're referring to is the DIAS/Drop-in auto sear (no hole needed in the receiver) and/or the auto-connector/"Lightning Link." Both of these are in fact considered by the BATF to be machineguns in and of themselves. Second, it's worth noting that an AR15 receiver with the pivot hole for the factory safety sear drilled, even if the receiver has no parts installed or in the proximity of the receiver is a machinegun in and of itself.

 

As far as the bit about possessing certain M16 fire control parts, bolt carriers, etc... in conjunction with a semi-auto AR15 being the equivalent of a machinegun, read those BATF opinon letters carefully. Note that every BATF opinon letter addressing this topic says "you could be in possession" and not "you are in possession." BATF opinion letters will generally start by repeating the original question and then citing the relevant statute, followed by the opinion (which is not a legally binding get-out-of-jail-free card, nor is it valid for anyone other than the addressee.) It's worth noting that Colt shipped thousands of semi-auto AR15s with M16/full-auto bolt carriers installed, and did so legally. AFAIK, not one person has been convicted of unlawful possession of an MG simply because they had an M16 bolt carrier in their semi-auto AR15.

 

FWIW, here's the letter that started it all:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel...tf_letter52.txt

 

It might also be usefull to see these as well:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel...tf_letter55.txt

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel...tf_letter90.txt

 

And:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel...atf_letter1.txt

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel...tf_letter35.txt

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having known ATF agents, and heard more stories of them, do you really want to have something that "could" be considered a problem I this day and age? Especially with all the hub bub about terrorism and assualt guns? If the ATF takes in your weapon to "test" there is a very good chance you will never see it again, and if you complain they may just come toss your house to see what else you have.

 

 

So while it is a legal tightrope, I don't want to walk it, and don;t want anyone else to. If you have an AR-15, and it has an AR-15 bolt (not an M-16 one) there is a whole lot less they can hassle you. and being able to talk about the issue with the officer and explain whatyou have done and why can go a long way to defusing any situations.

 

Considering what lawyers charge, it is far better to be safe than sorry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

New Romantic

It's good to see this topic has created some good discussion concerning the legal aspects of owning an M16/ Ar15.

 

The two main points I've learned here-

 

1. DO NOT attempt to covert an Ar15 lower receiver to fire fully automatic

 

2. Using an Ar15 bolt and carrier is the best way to avoid getting burned by the BATF

 

Thanks for the good info!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.